I think it would be kinda cool to choose if your character is gonna be evil or good, and you can complete quests different ways for different outcomes.
My only concern is if it would really fit a TES game =/
What do you think?

I'd rather have a "luck" miscellaneous/background stat that can be increased with special items or receiving blessings or something like that. Maybe it could actually influence the loot you find, like everyone thought it did in the past two games.

Only if there are different standings with different factions, and the karma is like OB's fame/infamy, your standing with the gods and the temples, which is just one of the factions.

I never liked the karma system in fallout 3, it felt like a chore to me after a while - trying to tailor my play-style around getting a certain karma rating as opposed to just playing naturally. I kind of like that there is no 'moral compass' (apart from fame, infamy obviously).

No. No "karma," no "good" or "evil." What Oblivion did was appropriate and it worked rather well. Fame and Infamy. Expanding on/tweaking that is enough. I don't want a whole morality system.

I think there should be a karma thing in EVERY open-world game, but it should never be labeled or visible to the player, or talked about by the devs, so you wouldn't be aware of it unless you went screwing around in the code. The result would just be people treating you differently depending on how you acted around them, and it would be done in a realistic and immersive way without having to design a whole new system. This way, you don't have to cut morality into black and white standards like you would if you attached a visible number to it.

Honestly, I think video games need to start throwing out these arbitrary "scores" attached to game mechanics. They're kind of the product of a bygone era, and they don't do anything but take away from immersion.

The visible stats are important for a sense of progression. If you would never know that they exist, what's the point of the devs spending so much time to implement them in the first place?

Karma could effect luck, so maybe.

I don't think it would hurt, I wouldn't want to see Fable style where it changes the way the game looks and feels but somewhere in the character info I wouldn't mind seeing it e.g.

"Ow look, my Karma says I'm a ruthless killer. Would you look at that"

or

"I knew I was whiter than white, I'm so good the sun shines out of my REAR END" (nice boys don't swear)

You'd know they exist by the effects on the world around you. With the Karma thing, if you've commited a lot of crimes, whether you did it for money or honour or because you were forced, criminals will still migrate towards you as your reputation as a criminal grows, and civilians will start avoiding you. On the other hand, if you always take the high road, whether because you feel it's your duty or because you're a stuck-up jerk, lords and religious leaders will still be attracted to you and the people will praise you as a hero. There's nothing wrong with the numbers, I just don't feel I need to see them to understand what they're doing in-game. If I'm a bad guy, I want the world to treat me like a bad guy; I don't want to get ten gamerscore for making it to level twenty as a bad guy. That makes it feel like a video game and not like a living, breathing world.

With Radiant AI affecting how NPCs approach you and your dialogue with them, this sytem feels more appropriate than the "Karma Level" system of Fallout 3.

Yeah, sure. Let's make the game even more like Fallout 3.

No. The ES series is just fine without that infernal karma system.

Having the choices is good, but I don't think the Karma is necessary. TES's reputation system is more flexible. For example, the Thieves and Dark Brotherhood would both be "low Karma" groups, and killing and stealing would both be karma-lowering actions, but the Thieves Guild doesn't approve of murder and the Brotherhood wouldn't care what you steal as long as its not from them.

Of course those kinds of actions would make most people dislike you, so the Karma system's an okay approximation, but they could just make a secret faction called "Law-abiding Skyrim citizens", put most people in there, and have it lower your reputation with them.

Lol yeah, i kind of agree with you, I don't want it to be so it changes the way the game feels but only like, that you get different reactions from people depending on your karma and fame
Although I wouldn't want it to be evil or good in that way so if you are good you never swear, never fight, are nice to enemies... and if you are evil I wouldn't want it to be like I am a mindless murderer but more like sinister "smart" evil
And good would be that you are more noble and have honor e.c.t

I think you understand what I mean

Do you have any idea how many invisible numbers are in these games that the player isn't aware of? There are literally hundreds. Open up the Oblivion CS and have a look inside the Settings tab. So why did the devs spend so much time to implement them in the first place? Because you simply can't have a game without them. It wouldn't make any difference if there a few more behind the scenes that the player might not know about. One thing I liked about the Karma system in Fallout was that you couldn't just steal something without there being any consequences. Simply not being able to sell the item except to the fence was a lame and unrealistic method of providing a penalty for being dishonest. Karma allowed that penalty to be immediate, and also made sense.

No, it barely even affected gameplay.

i don't like the idea. it's almost akin to 'psychic guards'. how does an npc/quest giver know about something i did way over on the other side of the map 2 days ago? especially if no one else knows that i did it.

I absolutely hated the karma system in Fallout. I would much rather the system be that if I steal something or murder someone without any witnesses, no one in the game is any wiser, or my personal karma change one way or the other.

We have fame. It's the same thing really, but it shows what others think of you, not your real moral standings. It's better this way.

No, no, no. Karma, if it has any impact on dialogue, just ends up robbing your character of free will. I don't want to be locked out of dialogue choices because I haven't "leveled up" my goodness or evilness enough.

IRL, good people can choose to do evil things, and visa-versa. It should be the same for my character. Having a localized reputation is one thing, but general morality meters of any sort are a video game contrivance that needs to die.

:intergalactic:

besides Karma in FO was superbly stupid and didnt even reflect what the actual sense of karma was.

Do bad get Bad, Do good get good.


So why is me killing off an entire settlement = a luxury sweet, slavers kissing my *** and giving me weapons and ammo?

and why if I save the settle ment I get chased down by head hunters the entire game >_>

No, want the Morrowind Oblivion style so that I will be rated by my official actions.
Cause even if I'm stealing and killing I can also be a gentle guy and none will ever think about me as a badboy ^^
So If I get caught by stealing something I will loose my status but If none is seeing me while doing that I won't get affected.

Dunno if I'm right, but did you get a bounty in Oblivion after killing someone and none was around? Think so... Then I would get the Morrowind style back, If none sees me doing it I can murder everyone (A guard as well, hated to getting a bounty cause of killing a guard even if there was none around and the guard didn' even had the chance of reporting me)

The TES series has done well enough without clear good and evil. Don't add karma.


Fallout 3's system was kind of weird anyways. Let the ghouls into tenpenny and they murder everyone - good karma. Shoot the ghoul who murdered everyone - bad karma.

Well for deciding fate better have Luck, also there is no black or white in TES all gray, but there can be reputation or fame and infamy

Works wonders for Fallout... but doesn't fit TES if you ask me. You've already got Fame and Infamy, that sort of serves the same function.

Good and Evil are just differing points of view to me.

I do think there is Good and Evil but that no mortal can be either.

I find the hole karma system to be pretty immature.