http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1577186-on-orcism-a-book-against-orcish-discrimination/


Would you like to see this book and its appropriate voews cannonised and expanded on by TES and Bethesda? ( provided that the spelling and grammar was cleaned up of course)

Why?

Because someone suggested it to me

The book itself or the discrimination part? There already is discrimination against Orcs in TES: Even the name suggests that.

It's a bit meta. You focus on points that have been observed within the games and a bit in the 3rd Pocket Guide, but you haven't really contributed many new ideas and I think that's essential for any new in-game books.

• The introductory paragraph certainly breaks an Orcish stereotype. Not that Orc is writing a book, but how he is responding to discrimination against his race. I'm assuming that the author has an agenda and that is to lessen discrimination against Orcs. The traditional Orcish way is basically to work on physical and military resilience, not to counter the discrimination itself. So perhaps the author could later focus on the benefits of going from being feared at best to tolerance to total acceptance. And that's not something every Orc actually wants to seek because it sounds a lot like assimilation. The author may advocate such an approach or explain how Orcs can still be Orcs and gain acceptance.


• I'm not sure if Orcs are that widely regarded as "illiterate, infant-murdering, blood-crazed daedra worshippers" in 4E201, after over two centuries of Orcs living in cities with other races, although I suppose the author may well think that they are.


• You mention an example in the College of Winterhold, but go on to the next paragraph instead of describing it. People who played Skyrim may know what you mean, but most in-universe readers wouldn't.


• I'm not quite the point of the next paragraph is, but the idioms, like the Skooma pipe one add a bit of flavour.


• Yes, Orcs were seen as monstrous barbarians during the Imperial Simulacrum or the Warp of the West, but why single out those periods? Presumably, they were violent outcasts throughout the the 3rd Era until King Gortwog changed things. Also, A Dance in the Fire is set during the Imperial Simulacrum as I recall, and it featured Orcs in Fallinesti. Whatever their Bosmer neighbours thought of them, they weren't shooting them on sight. ESO takes this further with Wood Orcs, if you don't already know.


• Some sort of critical review of the historical allegations against Orcs may be in order here, but that warrants at least one book in itself.


• "At some point after the events of The Warp of The West, but before the Nerevarine Prophecy, there was some change socially." First, some of those events as well some that followed would be of immense interest to the likes of the author, so more should be discussed about them. The Warp of the West is important in this regard, but it's just the catalyst. I expect this sort of action would be of greater interest to most Orcs than the signing of a treaty agreed between Gortwog and Uriel VII, but it's all worth at least mentioning. Secondly, I'd say there was a lot of change in that period. Although I have my doubts as type that. Orcs didn't hang out with townspeople in the old games, but then most towns were mechanically monoracial and the persecution in Iliac Bay may have been exceptional.


• A lot of readers outside Morrowind would need to be told where Gnisis is. It seems like a fairly obscure reference. I would expect Imperial records to be the first source about Orcs in the Legion. And if you're going to suggest that the Nerevarine or Champion of Cyrodiil might have been an Orc, some evidence wouldn't hurt, even if it isn't really concrete. Like how there are a few legendary individuals said to be the Eternal Champion.


• Those strongholds sound quite sparse to me. When you've got nine cities in the province, including the likes of Falkreath, four strongholds may look like a lot, but they are isolated forts at the end of the day. And they say they always lived that way, so it presumably isn't anything new. Something similar may have existed at the Malacath shrines in Morrowind, but that's largely my speculation. Also if the Orcs have lived in Skyrim for half as long as they claim, Orsinium is representative of the strongholds if anything, rather than the reverse.


• Good idea for an ending message although I'm not sure how "Nobody bests an Orc" fits into it. Also "thane" is a bit localised. Remember that in old pamphlets and books about Skyrim and pretty much everywhere else, rulers were called kings and such rather than jarls and the like.

Obviously you're very keen on the topic so keep at it. One thing I'm curious about is the word "Orsimer". It existed in TESIII, but it sounded like technical or archaic term and next to nobody in-universe used it. Now lots of fans use it. I haven't noticed if NPC's in the more recent games. So who is using it and why do they prefer the term to "Orc"? Does "Orc" have too much negative baggage. Do they (and "they" are not necessarily Orcs themselves) want to bring the Orcs' Elven heritage to attention instead of their popular designation in the late 3rd Era as a beast race? If so, what do other races make of that?

It's a nice topic, IMO.

I'd like to see more material on the orcs as a whole.

Hopefully if the next game is in Hammerfell, we'll get more of that through Orsinium-centered events.

It is a nice topic and I can understand the good vibes for the Orcs.

It's just that deep down inside lies this feeling that the myth of the Orc transformation has been misinterpreted. That indeed the Orcs are the top of the goblin chain and that the Orcs have either totally invented or greatly twisted the whole Prince Boethiah defeating the Aldmeri god Trinimac, transforming him into Malacath and his faithful, the Orsimer, into Orcs thing to help gain acceptance into polite society. That's just my thought though.

I remember talk that orcs were goblin-kin until the 'warp of the west' which the dragon break not only helped gortwog gain recognition in the empire, but also made them of mer background for acceptance. before the warp, the orcs, goblins, and orges would band together. it was then said that due to no longer being goblin-kin, the goblins and orges no longer band with orcs, and are hostile towards them like the other races.

this was talked about before morrowind was released.

I like it.

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by having in canonized, though. What's to canonize? Some orc wrote a book of protest?

No idea. Maybe it could be included into the next TES game to be a included in a misc. quest? xD

No, I wouldnt. Simply because Orsimer arent the only race who face discrimination. The racism in TES is constant and shouldnt be taken away from, as it makes a good sense of tension and conflict which makes it so damned interesting.


EDIT/ADDON: I dont want to sound like an ass, it was a good read and pretty well thought out. I just wouldnt want to see it in-game, please dont take offense to that.

no offence taken!