Cannot completely agree with the present tense part- it depends on singular versus plural.

"The bodies lie..." Present tense, plural. The bodies are there right now.

"The body lies..." Present tense, singular. CF- "My bonny lies over the ocean...". (Which when I was a kid, I thought was "body.")

However, past tense doesn't seem to care about singular/plural- "The body (or bodies) lay in the field until the families came to collect it( or them).

Here are the inflections: "She is going to lie down. She lay down. She hasn't yet lain down."

"Lay down your sword. I laid down my sword yesterday. The weapons had been laid down."

The sad part (and what makes these things hard for me to explain clearly), is that I tend to do this "by ear." And being a doggie, I have really good ears.

Lay vs Lie. :ahhh:

Thank you so much for the help! I think it is clearer now; However, I still may have to run future such passages out via PM for a 'doggie' check!

I don't think it means necessarily that a person didn't do something, but rather that a person was hesitant/did not want to do something. Like, for instance, I can persuade you to post a fan-fic here. You can do so reluctantly -- meaning, you have reservations about doing so, but you do it anyway -- or you can do so eagerly -- meaning you are happy to do so (in which case you probably wouldn't have needed to be persuaded in the first place, lol).

Hope that makes sense

EDIT: BTW, this thread is a great idea!! Thanks for posting it!!

I have some issues I'd like to discuss.

To anyone reading my fan-fic (Memoires of Rales Sarethi):

I am thinking about "breaking" from the game's story line order. As Morrowind players might know; once you reach a certain rank at any of the great Houses, you get to build a stronghold.
How wrong would it be if I decided to ignore the rank thing and Rales gets to build a stronghold way before he was in the game. I was thinking about and maybe it could be a favour from Athyn because Rales is a relative?

What do fellow writers think? I think it would suit the situation I have created (or rather; the mess I made out of it )

Second is: I have written a conversation between Athyn Sarethi and Rales but it got out of hand and got much longer than I had thought it would be. Would a long conversation suit the style of my story or should I sort of summarize it?

I'd say that a faction letting someone build a stronghold is essentially elevating them to be a minor noble. If you have an "in" for Rales that makes him a minor noble without having to toil for the great house, there's no problems. You can play the story from there, where he'll be more noticed and often more respected. His whole town can support him then, and farm him some money.

Well; the "in" as you appropriately name it would be that he is already a noble. (he is family of Athyn after all)
Ofcourse, he'll need to do some work to prove his loyalty.

Well, I don't really know what to tell you one that one, Remko, but if you don't mind I have a bit of a problem myself. Actually, multiple problems

1. My biggest concern with the future of my own story is that I eventually plan on having multiple characters cooperating together, like a party in an RPG. In two of my past stories I have tried to do something similar, and I found it rather awkward trying to describe everyone and their reactions. Should I have them be a kind of collective, saying things like "they did this" as opposed to describing each of them individually? I don't want to lessen showing any of them, and I also don't want to change my plans of who to include for both plot and lore reasons.

2. Another problem is keeping my characters in line with their personalities, making sure all of their responses and actions are realistic. Apparently I have had people laugh when they should be upset, cry when they should be stoic, etc. How do I tell when my characters are being unrealistic? It feels right, I have the same kind of attitude towards it as the proper parts of my story, but people have criticized me about it. I do want them to point my mistakes out to me, don't get me wrong, but I don't see anything wrong with it. And that goes beyond characters, I have had actual events which I planned out and justified, but I frequently need to explain to people, yet I can't find anywhere to include the requisite information without infodumping.

3. And the last issue I have with my writing is pacing, especially with action or fight scenes. I can't seem to describe everything I want to without slowing down the flow too much. It is an obvious and seemingly simple problem, but I am never satisfied with any of my writing, especially the action scenes.

I can't really express all of the inadaquacies of my writing, some of them I don't even know myself Though I don't want to advertise my own story, so I'll just be leaving, lest I start. Thank you

Darkom, I feel pretty unqualified to answer, but let me offer a possible thought on #1. That sounds really neat. I think what I would consider for how to deal with it would be deciding before a scene who is key or best to relate it. Then use a strict limited perspective of that one character for the scene (or even better for a whole chapter if it works out that way). When you are in that person's pov, you can really develop their character. 'Tis a silly example I suspect, but you could have relayed your most recent story from the perspective of the bartender - if he is important to your story, you could really bring him out. If you wanted to, you could have had the scene prior to entering the Inn strictly from the perspective of the field mouse - how 'bout that?

Seriously, though, I thing a story involving a small party that uses limited perspective thrid person pov could be fascinating and certainly get across all their personalities.

I plan to do exactly that in a later arc of Noblesse Oblige, however, that's written entirely from one person's perspective. I'm thinking of just making it first person, actually. I think that if you can design the characters well enough, you can progress them equally, no matter how you choose to write them. I think a good mix of the two options you have is best, personally. There are points where it would be easier to describe their actions together, and others where it would make more sense to elaborate on their specific actions.



This is just something you have to keep in mind yourself. Only you know how your characters should act in a situation, and only you know their personality, as you designed them. And, strictly speaking, infodumping isn't necessarily bad as long as it's done tastefully and not all at once. If you can spread it out a bit and make it not completely obvious that you're infodumping, I think it's fine. It's a necessary method of writing most of the time.



This is something a lot of writers have issue with. Personally, I've always really liked my action scenes, although I'm usually overly concerned about them as well. A long action scene only slows down the pace if it's a boring action scene. I've essentially devoted a entire chapter to an action scene without having it break pace, because it keeps tension and doesn't break flow in the scene. Length is only bad if it gets boring. If you can write a long action scene while still keeping your readers attention, then the pacing is good.

I suppose that would be a good way, Acadian, and my primary method of writing up to this point. I don't know why I didn't do that for the introduction :shrug: I usually designate a point of view. Thanks.


Alright, thanks Ambrose, I'll consider all three then (limited, collective, and full third, though full would become tiresome to use all the time)

I see what you mean, but I'll still try and be more careful in the future. I know that the recent conversation with the Night Mother was a bit of an infodump, but no one seemed to complain, so I'll take that as a good example.

Yeah, I usually find myself okay with my action scenes, but I tend to have a pessimistic view about my writing (or so I've been told).

Thanks you two, very helpful stuff :goodjob:


EDIT: As to Contureh's question, I usually do. I sometime listen to my normal type of music, but my genre of choice is classical. Put on a little Venice internet radio and go to town on MS Word; all of this after reading a good chapter in my current book of choice (right now it is the Count of Monte Cristo, over 1,400 pages). Though my last chapters I couldn't because my internet was down

Do you listen to music while you write? I know it's not exactly an on topic question, but I was just wondering.

Sure. I kind of write in two ways, one in short spurts and the other in longer spans. Sometimes I'm watching a movie or reading when I'm inspired to do something with the story, so I write for five minutes or less about what I see the characters doing. Often times it's just things that explain the characters better. No music then because it's so quick, but when I write for an hour or two I like to have something peaceful playing. Something like Puccini or the Chicago. Today, it's the Carpenters.

I do listen to music when I write. I listen to music when I do pretty much everything however. I have a about a dozen gigs worth of mp3s on my hard drive that I play on shuffle, so it is nothing in particular, just whatever comes up next.


I have a question for everyone as well. I have been grappling with the capitalization of watch, as in the Imperial Watch. I know "Imperial Watch" should be capitalized as it is a proper noun, just as "Chicago Police Department" is.

However, where I get into a grey area is when referring to an individual watchman, is it "watchman" or "Watchman"? I have been using lower case. I am also wondering about its use in phrases like "This is watch business" or "The watch never comes down here." or "Damn! its the watch!". So far I have been using it lower case there as well. Am I correct?

Much like SubRosa, I listen to music while doing almost everything. I need it to concentrate. I'm honestly not sure what I would do without music, but I'm the sort of person that gets easily distracted by things going on in the background, so if I didn't have music to drown out background noise (And there's a lot of it in my house.) I'd constantly be walking back and forth to find out what's going on. And then I'd never get anything done. Typically it's rock or metal, and occasionally I'll listen to pop or rap. Classical I listen to while reading, not writing. The only thing I don't touch is country.



Generally, I capitalize Watch whenever it comes up, as well as Watchman, though the latter I'm not entirely sure of.

Think of it this way- using modern parlance:

"I'm a copper."

"Joey- it's the cops!"

"Call the police."

"I work for the New York Police Department."

"He's a policeman."

Now substitute "watch (or watchman)" wherever you see "cop, copper, policeman, or police."

ETA- (because Ambrose51 is quite correct about Pterry)- the best rule is to create a style sheet for yourself and stick to it. (Something I need to do for my own stuff- I think I probably use "Ald'ruhn" and "Ald-ruhn" rather interchangeably).

Well, I tend to capitalize it based off Terry Pratchett and his Watch, which I believe is generally capitalized. He also capitalizes Watchman, if memory serves.

I listen to music 24-7 when possible, absolutely when writing. I have found that certain songs help me write certain characters better, kind of "set the mood" for that character's personality. I have one particular song for Vicente that I play every time I am going to write his parts (to get myself in the mindframe); some of the characters have more than one song that is used alternately in reference to what their mood or actions will be in the chapter.

I have another question for the grammar/spelling buffs:
When do you use further and when do you use farther?

Treydog, Ambrose: Thanks for the input guys. So far I have been going from the modern usage of the word "police", just as the dog suggested. Looking at http://www.grammarbook.com/punctuation/capital.asp, that seems to bear out, given this section:



Although police are not high ranking officials, it would seem the same rules ought to apply as you are addressing a civil officer by their function. So Volsinius would be a watchman, but Watchman Volsinius would be on patrol (the latter assuming that watchman is an official rank within the Imperial Watch, such as sergeant or lieutenant).



mALX: Ever since I saw the movie I'm Gonna Get You svcka I have been associating specific songs with characters in role-playing and fiction. In the movie the Old Hero (Richard Roundtree of course!) has a band of musicians that follows him around and plays his theme music. At the end of the movie the Young Hero gets his own musicians. So now when I hear a song that fits a character, I think "that is their theme music".

For example, The Reason by Hoobastank always makes me think of Teresa and how she feels about the Emperor:



A week ago I heard Amazing by Aerosmith, and it makes me think of Simplicia:



This afternoon I heard Wonderwall by Oasis, and it makes me think of Teresa and Simplicia:

Edit: (went and listened to it) What perfect lyrics for both Teresa and Simplicia on all your picks, the one for Teresa couldn't be any more perfect!

When Maxical was up in the Jeralls after leaving the Arena hers was Linkin Park's "In The End" - but after she left there I had to find a new one, as she changed.

Here is a link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AWbgkRpYwc (sorry for the poorer quality of the recording - vid, youtube - lol)

This one kind of got lost...

Per the Chicago Manual of Style (one of my most prized reference works):

"The traditional distinction is to use farther for physical distance- 'we drove farther north?' and further for a figurative distance- 'look no further' 'let's examine this further'."

Thanks Trey! I kinda suspected it to be that way but just wasn't sure.

A quick question:

I have been noticing lately that many of the stories here seem to lack that kind of satisfying spark that professional novels have. We can't exactly expect our writing to be that good (some of us ), but what is it exactly that they are doing different from us? Published novels always leave that "wow" feeling when you finish them, and you feel like you were actually in the story. My own writing leaves me feeling kind of interested, but not really drawn into the story. I don't "feel" the characters like I would in, say, Dune or the Lord of the Rings. The plot seems much more predictable, more rambling and unfocused, and the characters all feel kind of gray.

I can't speak for everyone else, but I feel like my stories seem to be missing something. Is it just hundreds of hours of practice, or is there something specific that I can focus on to get that eye catching, award winning feeling. Just looking at my plot outline leaves me depressed It's so simple and predictable, it feels like it's hardly worth writing. But some of these books, it just amazes me how creative these guys are.

Perhaps it's just that feeling like you're looking up at the top of a mountain from the base, but the climb starts to look impossible from about a quarter up. I suppose it is like that for anything worth while, and all you can do is keep writing, and most importantly keep reading

A lot of writers hate their own work and think others' are better. It's nothing new. I've read more than a few novels in my time, and not even close to all of them give off a "wow" feeling. The problem with what you're saying is that you're comparing yourself to legends of literature. Read some of the lesser known dime novels off a rack and you wouldn't be so quick to put yourself down.

Many novels take years to write, and then more years as the author double checks his work. It's a matter of time. If you write long enough and are willing to learn, it isn't hard to gain that "wow" feeling, or at least in someone's eyes if not the majority. Plus, before any work gets published, there are people that go over the work for the authors to improve it for them, or at least some do that. The general lack of errors will often add to that "wow" feeling, especially if you're the type to make a lot of errors when you write.

It's time and effort. Read stuff, write stuff. Improve your skill. Then do it all over again.

A person matures with time. If you truly enjoy writing, you will keep it up and eventually you will get better.

How do you know when you're good enough to publish? Try publishing. If you write fan fiction and nothing else, then try writing something else. If you have nothing finished, then you're not ready to publish. When it's finished, send it to a publisher. Which publisher? Do your research. Everything is there on the Net. And even if your work is rejected by one publisher, send it to another. Many legendary writers were rejected plenty of times. Why did they become legends? Because they kept trying.