To focus on just one part of the question of what makes a novel pleasurable and memorable- I love "character-driven" stories. There has to be a plot, but the plot is what gives the characters something to do and somewhere to go....

Mrs. Treydog and I figured out about movies that we did not like that the problem was usually that we did not care what happened to the characters. A writer has to make his readers care... You do that by making the characters human (or elven or dragonish).... Give the protagonist a personality, complete with flaws. Examples- Maxical's wonderful lack of planning and headlong enthusiasm; Teresa's self-doubt and determination; Buffy's penchant for trying to see things from everyone else's point-of-view- and her insecurities.

Of course, the whole is more than the sum of the parts... a memorable character does not always have to be a "good" person (for some definitions of "good")- cf. Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid.

When planning or developing a story, think about who the main characters are- what do they want? what do they fear? why are they here? how do they feel about ____________ (insert racial, political, philosophical etc. macguffin).

Be prepared for your characters to evolve and to resist you or pull the story in unexpected directions. Example- Athynae Sarethi, who is absolutely essential to my current story, showed up out of nowhere. She was not even a spark in my doggie imagination when I started writing. But I am eternally grateful that she is there now, and that I listened to the impulse that told me Athlain needed someone who could knock some sense into him...

I looked at your post several times before answering it, basically because I don't want to come off as a snotty little know it all. So, apologies if I do.

Writing is my life - literally. I have two years left on my undergraduate BFA in creative writing at Loyola University, Chicago. Since I started the program I've had short stories and essays published, and a year ago I won an award for short story I wrote. I'm not bragging (really, I'm not!), just pointing out that this is my life, my passion. I started writing when I was twelve years old and I'm twenty-six right now. Yeah, fourteen years. To make matters worse, I'm moderately dyslexic (seriously, I have to wear special glasses and everything).

I can say this with absolute certainty: Ambrose is right on. I may have had some talent, but everything I accomplished, I accomplished through hard, hard work. Talent means zip. Bars and unemployment lines are filled with people with talent. So, from someone who loves writing, here's my two cents:

1. Read everything you can get your hot little hands on. I read two to three books a week (yeah, my eyes are crap, thanks for asking ) and many of them are the books Ambrose is talking about when he says "legends of literature." Why? Basic math really. The United States Library of Congress has 142 million items. I am 26 years old. I will probably live to 80. Maybe older, but I'm a realist. 80-26=54x52 (weeks a year) x 3 (books a week) = 8424 or the number of books I can reasonably expect to read for the rest of my life. (Raise your hand if you love reading so much you've actually done that calculation before!) That's it! That's all I have. Maybe 8500 if I push it.

So mostly, I read what I really want to read before I die and then I assume I'm going a die a painful death under the El (elevated train in Chicago) on the way home from school tomorrow (not a complete impossibility). Recently, I read Dune after reading a bunch of really great writing. I loved Dune, but Frank Herbert wasn't the world's best stylist (POV shifts in the middle scenes, etc.) Which is something to remember - you don't have to be a great writer to sell books or to be successful.

So read, read, read, but mostly what you love.

2. Write, write, write. When I started my creative writing program, one of my professors told me: "Writing is no longer a hobby for you. From this moment on, you're a professional." It was the attitude change, as much as anything. If you really want to write, you have to write. Like, a lot. I write every day, for hours. I work on two, sometimes three, projects at once. Write, write, write.

3. Rewrite, rewrite, rewrite. Okay, I made an admission above that some of my friends don't even know: I have to wear special glasses because I'm dyslexic. That means my spelling is atrocious. Spell check works but only so well. To catch all the spelling errors in my writing, I have to reread and edit and rewrite my work several times. Sometimes I get lazy and I always end up completely embarrassed when someone catches a spelling error. (For example, I reread this post four times before publishing it.) Over the years, I've learned all that rewriting improves my work.

Also, don't be afraid to throw your work away. Yeah, delete it if it svcks. This gets a lots easier to do if you write a lot, because you know there's always more coming. I've written piles and piles of crap. I've also written stuff I wish I'd had the courage to throw away.

Also, don't be afraid to completely rewrite entire chapters and stories. Try different things. Experiment. Sometimes it really pays off.

4. If you want your writing to sing, write with courage and passion. Write what you want, in the way you want to write it. Don't be afraid of what anyone thinks or if your writing is better than another writer's. Competition is for boneheaded athletes. When you write, you write alone. (Isn't there a song . . .)

5. Tell a story. (I mean, if you're writing fiction and not your master's thesis on symbolic logic, although . . .) Seriously, as a reader, I don't want to read 2000 words of descriptive exposition. I don't give a rat's backside if the rose is blue. I want to be svcked into a story and held there. That means characters that I care about, plot lines are more fascinating and interesting than my life, and I don't want to see the ending coming - but I'll give that away if there's a good plot and I care about the characters. This last thing's fairly critical. If I don't give a crap about the characters, I will NOT read the book. Word.

Okay, I'll say it again, you want to write, you write. Two years from now, I'll have a BFA in creative writing but so what? That won't make me a writer. What makes me a writer is the thousands and thousands and thousands of words I've put on paper and screen since I was twelve.

But that's the really cool thing: none of this is impossible. It doesn't matter if you have talent. You can do this and you can do it well, if you're willing to do the work. I promise you - you can do this. If I can do it with my screwed up eyes, I know you can do it. So keep writing!!! Eventually all the work pays off. (But not in money, in contributor copies.)

Okay, that's enough rambling by Danni. Sorry to just butt in here. I'll shut up now.

I have read plenty of published fiction that lacked any satisfying spark at all. In fact, I often wonder how many books get published, let alone why anyone would ever pay to buy them. I have ready many fan fics that were far, far better.

I have been writing amateur fiction on and off for about 30 years or so. The early stuff I wrote makes me cringe. But what I have done in the last few years I rather enjoy, especially what I am writing now. The old saying is true that the more you do it, the better you get. I have definitely seen that with several writers here, when comparing their first posts to their current ones.

I would honestly not worry about your plots being too simple or predictable. The truth is after 70,000 some years of homo sapiens being around there are no new stories, there are only new characters, and new characters put different spins on the old stories that we are so accustomed to. If your characters are vibrant and alive then people will want to read about them. They may also change your plot, if you let them. I am about to start chapter 8 in my current project. When I look back at my original outline the events within it were supposed to take place in chapter 3. So 5 new chapters sprung up without my intending them. They are all due to me following the characters down the paths they led me. I never used to write so much extra, unplanned material before. Instead I always stayed very close to my outline. Because of that I do feel that my current writing has a zing that much of my earlier works lacked. I can honestly say it is definitely the best I have ever done.

So I suggest you just keep writing and have an open mind. You are probably a lot better than you think you are!

Believe me Darkom, this one knows what he's talking about. I remember critiquing the first chapter of his 'New Kind of Warfare'. He started with a white little kitty fighting in the arena, and came a very long way. And like you said, becoming a good writer takes time. To be completely honest, I think you write better than me. I've told you that before I believe. It's all a matter patience. I wish I could've written as good as you at 14. Haha.

I feel the same. I remember when I was writing at 14. I would rather not, but I do. Terrible stuff. Think of it this way, if you would. You're still quite young, yet you're already a very good writer. If you want to, you could most likely become a very excellent writer, certainly better than what I could accomplish. Time makes people. No one is instantly good. So, even if you doubt yourself now, which you really shouldn't, I'm sure those doubts will fade with time. You should be confident in your writing, because you certainly deserve it.

Thanks Treydog! Here is an early XMas present for Mrs. Treydog - http://c1.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/58/l_658ede43327f4801bbfd05be246cc570.jpg <3


*

Wow, I didn't know I'd get that much of a response from people by saying what I feel, in a way that's almost whining. I'm glad you all would go so far to help, but in reality I would like to say my writing is at least a little better than what I give it credit for, but I try to stay as humble and critical as possible so as to keep improving. I try and practice two or three times a week, but that will increase dramatically over the next three weeks.

As far as character driven stories go, I am completely with you, Treydog, I love nothing more in a story than characters, and if there is anything I like about my writing it is my two protagonists, unrealistic as they may be. However, I don't think I deviate from my plans as much as some of you, which does feel like a negative thing. I know the few times that I have it has paid off pretty well, there was only one thing that I threw in that I didn't like in my story, and I got rid of that quickly.

I feel for you Danielle, and I am glad you could go so far with your writing. It really makes me want to go over and read up all of your current story, but tonight I just don't have the time Yeah, if there's one thing I know I need to do more it's reading. But my schedule is pretty hectic, I'd love to have writing be the main focus of my life but I really can't, at least not right now. I am juggling a good dozen things right now, so I am just happy I can find any time on the weekends to write. A heartfelt good luck to you, I hope to see one of your books on the shelf one of these days :goodjob:

I have heard that there are no original ideas anymore, and was about to include that in my post, but decided against it. I've seen some original stuff, or at least I think it was... Originality is subjective But anyway, I'll try letting my writing run free, and see where it gets me. I need some kind of goal or outline though, or else I simply can't write anything. Maybe it's just inexperience, but I most definitely need a plan set up several chapters in advance.



Indeed, that was one of the first fan fictions I read here, and I'm glad I did. I must admit I have fallen behind, I simply lack the time to read all the stories I want to around here. Maybe if I stopped RPing I could get back into it Thank you for the compliment, I really run on those when I force the faith out of myself (in a good way). Aw, now everyone knows my age Though if I wanted it kept a secret I probably should have kept it out of my username though, eh? It really put a hamper on some philosophical debates as well



I would be confident, and at heart I really am, but if I started publicly admitting I am semi-proud of my work, I've got the feeling it would make me conceited very quickly. And if there's one thing I've learned on these forums, it is so much easier to go about your business if no one expects you to do well. That sounds kind of bad, but I'm not trying to be sneaky or anything, if you look at it the right way I'm doing the newer writers (even newer than me, which is a scary thought) a kindness.

Well, thank you all for the advice, I'm sure it will help more than just me. I'm glad to see everyone getting some heartfelt comments out there, so now let's all just lock hands and have a big hug :hugs: Ah, I kid, but really I appreciate the kind words. From the bottom of my heart, thank you.

Whether you read someone's works or posts, or even whether you like them or not - this kind of thing is inflammatory and uncalled for on these forums. Please be respectful of others, you may want their respect one day in return. As a new member you may not realize this, but the Mods can and do act decisively against these kind of things.

Welcome to the forums, hope you realize this is a friendly gesture, just trying to keep you from a suspension of privileges.

nevermind.

QFT.

Some posts that have made unconstructive criticism and dragged the thread off topic have gone away. Do not make any more such posts, or the moderators will have to suspend you so the thread can continue without interference.

Here is a question for the audience: How should one capitalize the names of races, such as Breton, Altmer, etc...? You can also throw Daedra in there as well.

I have been capitalizing them because my impression is that they would be treated the same as we treat race names like African American, Caucasian, Asian, etc... Plus I always see them done that way in both the game, the manual, and places like the Wiki.

The way you've done it above is the correct and only way I've ever seen it done also. I've also seen an 'i' placed after some of the races.

Example:

Bosmeri, Altmeri, Dunmeri, etc...

So to answer your question more directly, yes, we would capitalize all men and mer races of Nirn. The same goes for the Sload.

Bretoni, Imperiali, Redguardi. Good fun.

Though honestly when it comes to fan-fics I think it shouldn't come up too much. In most real books they aren't going around saying "He lifted his Caucasian sword" or "We traveled to the lands of the Mongoloids". Even though some people might use those classifications, it's probably not going to come up very often. It would be better to refer to them based on where they're from or who's in charge of them considering the political climate. We all know those Dark Elves don't like each other much.

Just as you say. Capitalize all "proper" racial designations (Breton, Orc, Imperial, etc.) Also, seems to be the convention for High Elf, Wood Elf, Dark Elf and Daedra. Specific "creature" types are a bit more of a judgment call- goblin, clannfear, daedroth, Kynval? :shrug: Back to the style sheet for internal consistency at that point.

When I checked UESP wiki for this a long time ago, I came to the same conclusion - capitalize the races is what I do.

I don't add any trailing i's because I'm just not comfortable with that. I mean it seems pretty natural when someone writes Dunmeri, as an adjective, but Nordi? :lmao: (Now, that said, I have certainly used Nordic, Orcish and elven).

I don't capitalize elf or elven because it seems a generic term like mer. I would capitalize Wood Elf or Bosmer though. :shrug:

On daedra, I may be wrong, but I'm going for consistency. UESP seems to want to capitalize everything related to them: Deadra, Clannfear, Frost Atronach, Stunted Scamp..... I'm sorry and I may be wrong, but I refuse to captialize stunted scamp.... so I don't captialize any of the daedra any more than I would capitalize forest creatures, boar, deer, wolf.... Just me though and certainly debatable. I do captitalize Daedra Lord, Daedric Prince(s) though. I'm so confused. :wacko:



:whisper: Once again, kudos to RemkoNL for creating this useful thread! :goodjob:

Would not wood elf or high elf be the equivalent of saying human? or black or white in our world though? They seem informal to me, rather than being proper nouns like Altmer or Bosmer are. I have been thinking that, so I have not been capitalizing those.



I think the trailing "i"s are only for the elf races, because they are fancier and all with those pointed ears... But even then Bosmeri sounds kind of odd, where Altmeri and Dunmeri sound rather neat.




That is an interesting point. Perhaps it would be appropriate to capitalize the names of the intelligent races such as Dremora, or Daedra in general, but not to capitalize the "animal" breeds like daedroth, clannfears (and their arch-nemesis clannbraves? )

All valid points SubRosa, and I certainly don't have the answer. As it seems, there is certainly room for some debate. I think treydog hit the key. Consistency. If one writer consistently uses high elf and another consistently uses High Elf, who is to say? I would happily read and respect both authors.

I wouldn't capitalize those. Ask yourself this: Would you capatalize wolf? I wouldn't. So I wouldn't worry myself about capitilizing that either. I wouldn't capitalize a single dremora, because would you capatalize a single human? You would capitalize Humanity, so maybe you would capitalize Dremora.

Shouldn't this be "Treydog?" (just kidding)

I have always capitalized the races due to it being a proper name, but on the creatures no - however, when I write the words Daedra or Daedric I have always capitalized them. Not sure if I was supposed to,

Trey, the dachshund, insists upon his capitalization. But then, he is a royal weiner. The writer, treydog, is a more modest fellow.

Back on topic. Daedra (it seems to me) is again a collective "racial" term, rather like Tolkien's Valar (to mix mythos').

Lol, I was afraid I was wrong in doing that, but I really couldn't be sure if it was a proper name or not. (now I know) Thanks Treydog!! (but...what about Mrs. Treydog?)

Acadian and I were discussing an issue I had in my fan-fic, it's about the use of of / off / off of.
I wondered if anyone else has some insight in the matter.

Ooh! Good idea Remko. There are plenty of folks smarter than I who really know the grammar rules well. I'm sure some of them will pop up to help. :goodjob:

For readers, Remko had this sentence in his story and I was trying to help:

-'You didn't take it of some dead man, did you?'

The answer is:

Incorrect: You didn't take it of some dead man, did you?

Incorrect: You didn't take it off of some dead man, did you?

Correct: You didn't take it off some dead man, did you?

There are several websites that will answer this for you. http://www.grammarbook.com/grammar/probPrep.asp

ADDED: Just thought of this from my high school grammar class. One way to keep it straight is to think of "upon" or "on". You wouldn't write:

The cat jumped on of the couch.

So, if the cat didn't jump on of the couch, it can't jump off of it.

If we'd look up everything, there wouldn't be much of a point to having a nice discussion, no?
Thank you for your help Dani, I'll edit accordingly.