Probably for the best. Think you should go read some books as well, not sure the internet source you're relying on is accurate.
Serfdom (in Europe) pretty much ended after the Black Death killed off a third of the population of Europe and put supply and demand of labour firmly back into the hands of the labourers, so around the 14th to 15th century.
Slavery made it intact well into the 18th century and many people would go as far as to say it's alive and well still in many parts of the world.

Russia didn't abolish serfdom until 1861. So yeah, they were the odd one there.

Ahahahaha... just no. The infant mortality rate was obscene, life expectancy was less approximately 35.
I think I'll take plodding away as a wage slave with the abundance of leisure time to waste in pointless discussions on the internet any day

Re: the Soviet system, we're both oversimplifying. There were many, many reasons the Cold War was fought; and the West cuddled up with some very unsavory characters in the name of "opposing Communism". (For one thing, we sorta helped create Al Qaeda, to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan.) But it's undeniable that the Gulag system imprisoned free-thinkers, intellectuals, and other "enemies of the State" who were nonetheless too high-profile to just do away with, for PR reasons. And since I was reminded that this is a game forum, I'm going to leave it there.

As for ethical punishment- yes, I agree. If I commit actual murder, I expect to spend life in prison (in real life) or face the death penalty, depending on what state I'm in. Justified homicide does happen, both in life and in the game world (which is where I'd like to steer this conversation again). And, in-game, most of our encounters are of the kill-or-be-killed variety. But should there come a time when I capture a raider, what to do with them is going to be a difficult decision.

What crimes can I lay at this person's feet? Who are the witnesses? What's the evidence? Or is "belongs to a raider group" a crime of its own? Am I qualified to be judge and jury, simply because I have the bigger gun? That's the principle on which the raiders rule. What makes me different from them?

In any case, I still consider forced labor immoral- no matter who's being forced to do it. Cf. Bridge on the River Kwai. If the raiders are prisoners of war, they have rights. Even if they're criminals, they have rights. The reason we protect the rights of criminals is to protect the rights of the innocent.

Need I remind you, this is the villain's speech.

The romanticized version of "the oppressed peasants under the tyrannical overlord" was a vast exception in the feudal world. By and large, life was quite simple and enjoyable for serfs. As I stated, in actuality, becoming a freeman was a punishment during the time. It wasn't until the rise of the guilds during the late Middle Ages that the prospect became appealing. An understanding of Medieval life based off of simplistic or outright mis-information of history texts that form the foundation of most K-12 education over the last 100 years or so is a fallacy. We know (have always known) that the reality was far different, but the world has been trying to embrace capitalism and free trade since the Industrial Revolution. History is written (and re-written) by the power of the day. This has always been the case.

The manor system wound up being the answer after the fall of Rome. It wasn't as good, but it was the perfect solution to a total breakdown of international economy in Europe. And I repeat: For over 1,000 years, there were no more than a handful of revolts in any one country (kingdom). That is a pretty peaceful time for social unrest throughout the world's history. There was almost constant violence all over the place for a variety of reasons (mostly criminal or political), but it had nothing to do with social breakdown. The myth of people "dying at 35" in the Middle Ages is just that -- people would live well into their 60's and 70's. We have the archeological and forensic remains to prove it. Medicine took a blow after Rome was lost, but people were actually much healthier overall. Their diet was better. They lived more active lives. Even the small beer they drank, since clean water was very rare, was still far better than the soda and "sports drinks" we have today. You want a representation of what life was like? Look at their art. A celebratory, cartoon-like style was the most most popular form. Bright colors and mostly smiling faces. There are far more scenes of feasts and day-to-day life depicted than there are of warfare or tragedy. They had problems and suffered misfortunes, just like all people everywhere, but there were fewer "cogs in the machine". Life was far simpler, and people throughout Europe were generally quite happy.

The Fallout universe, especially now that the settlement system is in place, is more or less a depiction of feudal life. You gather together a small, self-sufficient community. People arrive willingly. They work willingly. They know what the alternative is. From a modern-day mentality, it seems like "Wow, what a horrible life." But what other choice does anyone have in such a situation? These settlers (like the Medievals) never knew our "modern world". They can't miss what they've never known. So settlers cannot be looked at as slaves. And any bandit with even a shred of decency who's captured as a slave would probably not take long to reform and ask to join the settlement. Their life in the Wasteland could not have been better before. For those that have no humanity left...well...that's what the chains are for. Sad. Wrong. Unethical. But necessary.

This would be a pretty deep and mature situation to add into the game. Especially since the Sole Survivor DOES come from the "modern world".

You know what gripes me? People judging me for wanting to enslave all of the commonwealth in a fallout game...

No it is not bad for you to enslave anyone in a rpg...

Heck they even have consensual slaves in real life now... But we are talking about in game. And the only answer is it does not matter, fallout is a advlt game, with advlt themes. And no one should be able to judge you for how you want to play a game.

:Looks at his companions: You hear me Preston... Curie... Fight to the death in the MEAT Factory!

In the context of Fallout, probably not. Altho, who would want slaves that would backstab you if given the chance? There are better solutions for labor workforce.....

In the context of real life, slavery is always wrong. Altho, we are all slaves, king or peasant, one way or another.

"Whenever I hear any one arguing for slavery I feel a strong impulse to see it tried on him personally."


- Abraham Lincoln

Ha ha ha! And this should certainly be an option. I think adding in "decorations" that actually have an effect on your populations should be included. Something similar to the mechanics used in the first Stronghold game.

You could create a settlement of values and festivities, lined with lights and banners, music and singing in the streets.

Or you could surround your fields with razor-wire. They will work until you tell them to stop. You signal the rifleman in the tower. He nods.

Mwahahaha...

Precisely. People always think they want to be "free". What they want is not "freedom" -- what they want is the right to do whatever they want whenever they want without having to worry about consequences. Not possible.

Freedom means: you are no longer bound to society's laws, nor are you protected by them. You are free. You are now bound by nature's law, and nature only has one law. You will do what needs to be done when it needs to be done...or you will die. Sickness, starvation, wild animal, exposure...nature is not going to give you a trial, and it doesn't care if you're too tired to deal with it.

Society and government are a bubble that keep nature at bay. But if you want to live in the bubble, there are going to be lots of things you need to do, even when you really, really don't want to. Fail to do so, and there will be consequences. No freeloaders. So, society is basically people giving up their "freedom" to protect themselves from nature. We all willingly enslave ourselves to the system.

"Slavery", as we use the term, means certain people are not even given the rights of other people in that society. It's wrong. It's unethical. (The abuse that occurred with America's slave trade was just atrocious.) Based on other situations, though, it's the lesser of many evils.

_______________

We've captured a thief and a murderer. What do we do with them?

1.) Set them lose on the world again until they kill and steal from someone else?

2.) Shoot them in the back of the head?

3.) Lock them in a cell until they finally go insane and die?

4.) Put a collar on them and force them to do some work?

While all pretty awful, only one of these options results in something being built instead of destroyed.

Uh, I always figured that by "freedom", you are free to do what you like within the confines of the law. For instance, I could take sick days if I felt like it. I could get paid to work seven days a week for six to seven hours. I can vote, question the government's policies, etc. I can do all that without worrying about undue punishment. I can expect a reasonable treatment from others -- ie: no flogging the [censored] out of me for a mistake, separating me from my loved ones to the auction houses, etc. I can sue someone if I feel an injustice had been committed.

Should we enslave Raiders? Well, considering that this is a setting where the law and order of the Pre-War world no longer exists, well, then what other choice do we have? As Plebeian noted, while all the options are bad, at least one results in something being built. Perhaps in extremely extreme situations such as what we see in the Fallout universe, slavery is a necessary evil. I'm not talking about raiders enslaving people, I'm talking, like, the NCR enslaving raiders and forcing them to work under pain of intense physical trauma and/or death. So...should the NCR enslave raiders?

I can't believe I'm actually defending slavery but...yes, yes they should. Remember, this is a dog-eat-dog world. Survival of the fittest. If the Raiders are too stupid to attack the NCR, too dumb to not get away, then the NCR should see fit to enslave them and put them to work building what they've tried to destroy. It would also help the NCR devote more resources to doing other things.

Look, slavery under normal circumstances (ie, our world) is wrong. It's inhumane, it's unethical. It's a crime against humanity. Barbarism.

Under the circumstances such as Fallout? Where there's nothing to keep you alive but quick wit and a working gun? Perhaps...perhaps slavery is necessary. Of course, if the raiders have children during their time of slavery, then we'd be asking if they deserve to be slaves because their parents were. In which case, no, no they don't need to suffer the punishment for the crimes of their parents. Educate them and merge them into polite society. They don't need to be slaves just because their parents are.

Heh... This sort of us-or-them situation is hardly foreign to our "real world". This is what war is. It's far more than individual battles. It consumes society.

Slavery is still a large part of the world, and like all customs, it's been grossly perverted by humans that "want it all". The taking of six slaves or what happened to slaves in early America is not even slavery -- that's just disgusting abuse. People didn't even treat livestock that horribly. That has little to do with slavery itself, and more to do with twisted human beings in positions of power who should be the ones chains. At its core, slavery was a debt paid by one side to the other after a war. Slaves would be taken by the winning side as part of the spoils of war. It broke the spirit of the losing side. They were a form of hostage, keeping further aggression in check. It allowed the cultures to merge. Horrible way to do it, but that was the result.

Modern crime and punishment is hardly any better. What we do with criminals in modern prisons is inhumane. Executing them is even more inhumane. Putting them in chain-gangs and forcing them to break gravel is inhumane. Sometimes, there are no good answers.

Society can keep nature at bay -- it can't keep it completely out.

The nice guy in me says "no, slavery is always wrong", but then the realist comes along and says(after killing, looting and eating the nice guy)"nah your good mate, end of the world n [censored], fill yer boots".

God? Lol.

"Glorified toasters" vs 'Ignorant servants'.


Think about it, wise guy


On that note, what's the difference between the synth brain & the human brain? If the synth is programmed to feel all of the human emotions (without limitations), and is self-aware, then there is no real difference between us... besides the way in which we were 'assembled' of course


Slavery is wrong, even if the person/machine (Gen 3) was 'born' into it. That's my opinion anyway...

Believe it or not, I have thought about it. And my opinion remains the same. You already said in your post what makes them different. The synth "brain" was programmed to feel those things. We do it by nature. They emulate emotions and have artificial personalities molded by made up, artificial experiences. They are, by definition, not human. The real-world slaves who were mistreated were human. That's the difference. And honestly, I'd put more value in the life of a ghoul, a super mutant, or a dumb animal than I would into that of a synth. Because at the end of the day, it is an actual life, not a fake one that is really good at pretending to be real.

I totally agree with this, except for the part about the machines, as that would make me a pretty bad guy for enslaving my computer.

How edgy of you.

My opinion on the matter can best be summed up as: "Who cares ? They're [censored]s, [censored] 'em"

Imo when it comes to judging good from evil tis intent that should be considered, not deeds. If you're killing evil people *because* they're evil people, that doesn't make you evil too, that makes you good for furthering the greater good and/or ridding the world of some bad stuff. Anti-heroism maybe, but still heroism. So long as your actions are making the world a better place (intentionally) you're being a good person, at least nominally.

You don't think that is a binary way of thinking? Groups of people have done great damage to another group because they thought the other group was evil.

Case in point, some guy saying serfdom isn't bad because people in power wouldn't dare do anything to harm the masses that outnumber them. To believe that you just have to ignore your knowledge of history and basic human behavior.

True. I wanted to rephrase that last comment, but I got distracted.


Regarding your computer 'being a slave': I specifically said Gen 3's.


What if they scrapped 'artificial memories' in place of real memories developed through real life experiences... Would that affect how you feel about them, or are they still just "glorified toasters" meant to serve their creators?

Essentially, a synth's "life" is replaceable, you can make as many "NicK" as you can as long as you have the original data and backup along the way. Even if it's based on the real person, it's basically just robots emulating life based on the a pre-defined data. I don't ever consider it slavery.

Er.. ya mean in the computer game Fallout 4? No.

In real-life? Emphatically, yes.

Whoa, look at this strawman argument. Perhaps, you should formulate a real argument instead of calling us ignorant of history and human behavior. And what a ridiculous assertion, since both Plaebian and myself have provided very detailed arguments, and I've even pointed to a very good MIT summary of the feudal system. I've also taken a course on this subject in college at UCLA, so I think I might have some knowledge of this subject. However, I would really like to understand how you could possibly think it reasonable to call someone else ignorant, and then provide no evidence nor arguments to the contrary.

If ucla has a course on the benefits of slavery that may have more to do with America embracing fascism than any historical veracity. The concept of a benevolent dictatorship is pure fantasy. Just because you went to school doesn't mean you aren't immunized against logic, people loudly proclaim the benefits of all kinds of atrocities.

The sad thing is, this kind of stuff is par the course in the history forum I frequent. :/