Ah, thats not going to happen, DarkOne just advised me once you switch off endorsemants they are gone for good - Noob uploader fubar on my behalf. Oh well, less work for the moderators over there I suppose. I turned them off initially because I expected a lot of feedback would be Wrye Bash installation related :rolleyes: which is not my concern really.

hmm, are you sure he meant that the entire feature is no longer available to be enabled, or just that all your previously accumulated endorsemants will be lost?
I can't imagine why the feature would be locked out entirely, it doesn't really make sense. Purging the database does make sense though.

No, I've always understood that you have to make the decision regarding comments and endorsemants when you first add the file. If you turn them off, they are off for good. I think if you start with them on, you can't turn them off afterwards either.

Description edit only - New additions to the links for BAINs' found.

Hey alt3rn1ty, I finally had a chance to go through the new versions. Looking pretty good. Another example of a "simple" complex BAIN is Display Stats by TheNiceOne. I'm using that as an example of how to package up my mod for BAIN installation because the changes it makes are very similar to what I need to do...

Anyway, well done. Appreciated the info on creating BAIN's.

Edit: Used your guide to package Oblivion XP as a BAIN ready install :goodjob: Now we'll see if it works or not I still don't use BAIN - mainly because I don't get a chance to actually play anymore!

Thank you a lot for these superb guides!

Now I have a question on advantages and disadvantages of having compressed and uncompressed BAIN-ready mod installers. I`m on a big quest to make all mods I use BAIN-ready, so this is an essential question for me.

You write: "If your installer is already a de-compressed (extracted) folder, you are doubling the amount of space used."

Is this the only advantage of having the mods compressed? Enough space isn`t really my problem and 7z does not compress the files to a 1 % original amount of data size anyway, more like 60-80% I guess?
The reason I`m asking is: Wrye Bash works a lot faster not having to extract the files, doesn`t it? I`m talking about some big packages like QTP3 Redimized or OOO?
What If I need to switch or delete some files from the installer? I can`t do that with the .7z right, but with an extracted folder I can do that directly.

I`m a beginner with Wrye Bash and 7z and happy about any enlightment. Hope somebody can help me.

I`m still looking for a helpful reply concerning the advantages of not compressing BAIN installers (see post above).

Good news, and yes I think I need to update the description here too ( TESNexus description is the most up to date regarding BAIN ready/friendly links and includes a couple of TNO's mods - I think about updating gamesas then consider needing to strip out the advlt links here and it sort of goes on the Round tuit list )



Sorry for the late answer here - Work kept me away...

But yes there is an advantage to having them de-compressed, they will be handled quicker with Wrye Bash. However...

A couple of advantages to keeping the archives compressed, one being space taken on your HD which is not a concern for yourself....

But also - having them compressed in a zip reduces the target footprint for errors to occur in the original files. Consider the size of a zip say for example 60% of the total un-compressed size of all contained files, thats 40% less chance for read/write errors to occur with the original files. Its easy enough to download a fresh version, but sometimes sites go down at inconvenient moments, mod authors move on to other games, or even pull their files down for various reasons, or over time they just get lost. Its also easier for troubleshooting where errors originate if you have a large installation of mods, where you have say 100 zips containing thousands of files, if a crc check on a zip fails theres your problem, replace the zip, whereas you may be searching thousands of un-compressed files otherwise to locate a single file read/write error problem.

Personally I prefer the slightly longer time reading zips for the added file integrity checks which are done every time an archive has to be de-compressed.

Another advantage is for de-fragging purposes, having 100 zips as opposed to double the amount of thousands of loose files, especially if they are all on the same drive/partition is going to be better for on the fly game loading performance too.

P.S Having been absent for a few days - Merry Christmas (or whatever you celebrate this time of year wherever you are) to all

Doesn`t matter, thank you for your reply.

I have a suggestion though. There is one simple thing I found quite confusing. You wrote about how the installers that are higher in the order overwrite the files of the lower order installers. The confusing thing is that from my subjective perspective things with a higher priority are on top and a lower number indicates a higher order. Just think of the Olympics: the guy on the first place, not the on the third place gets the gold medal, right? After I saw the numbers (1,2,3. etc.) below the "Order" column I knew what was my fault, but before that I was quite confused. Maybe you can add a note concerning this. Or my logic is just awkward.

However, keep up the good work mate. Your guides helped me a lot. I would appreciate a pictorial guide on the bash tags and the bashed patch, because that`s the next important step.

Ya know, this was the very thing that baffled me most when converting from OMODs to BAIN. I too automatically think of "higher" as meaning "visibly higher on the screen" when packages are sorted by ORDER (lowest number at screen-top). I caught on that for Wrye pros "higher" mean, in this case, "a larger numerical value regardless of visible position on-screen" quite early on. Yet to this day, having used BAIN installation almost exclusively a solid half-year, I tend to be become momentarily confused when reading typed BAIN instructions explaining that "higher overwrites lower". It does me no harm. At most I ponder a few seconds then remind myself, "Oh yeah, what I think of as higher is actually lower and vice versa" and all's well. Up until now I assumed I was the only one who thought this way. If there are more than a few of us, maybe a brief explanation of what constitutes lower and high is in order?

-Decrepit-

:) No your logic is fine, I think most people have the same problem and get it upside down initially, in my case when getting to grips with it I thought I had it upside down, reversed the order of everything, then realised the order I had was correct in the first place so had to reverse my ordering again (See Footnote *).

And... the reason that particular aspect was left out of the guide is because the order can be inverted with Wrye Bash Order column, so that highest is actually higher up on your screen as opposed to being at the bottom of your screen. So left it up to the user - But I do give hints to solve this, by mentioning the conflicts tab. If you have an installer selected which has files which conflict with files from another installer, then the conflicting files will be labelled as lower or higher and from which installer they come from. With that information it then becomes easy to determine which installer/files are actually regarded as higher by Wrye Bash and will end up in the game.

Personally I prefer Highest to be visually at the bottom of the screen (installing last and overwriting anything before it). The reason for that is because if you look at a complex installer and its sub-packages, which adopts a numbered folder approach (10 Core Files, 20 Alternate esp, 30 green textures, 30 blue textures etc) whereby the last of those selected wins, then it looks odd to me if you have the main list of installers upside down....

9 installer
8 installer
..10 core files
..20 bigger textures
7 installer
..10 core files
..20 alternate esp
6 installer
5 installer ....... etc is just logically and visually wrong to me. Whereas ...

5 installer
6 installer
7 installer
..10 core files
..20 alternate esp
8 installer
..10 core files
..20 bigger textures
9 installer ....... has a better flow

This ordering though can only be decided by the user to their taste really so ... left it as is with hints to solve/get used to it.


Footnote * - The thing that made me change my load order the first time was actually because I mis-understood how Wrye bash installs your installers if you do them all at once ...

I dont wish to confuse you further, but it does them backwards - In my idea of Better flow above, installer 9's files are highest and end up in game overwriting files from installers lower in the list ( 1-8 ), however if none of those were installed, and you multi-select them all to install at once, Wrye Bash starts with installing installer 9, then installer 8, then installer 7 ... any conflicting files from installers 1-8 just get skipped so that highest is still respected.

When you see that happen for the first time you immediately think "Nooo, its installing the last one first so it will be overwritten by the others!", which is not the case - Confusing, but it does it that way because it is faster programmatically than doing it the way you think it should.

Edit: Last note - If your installers have NO conflicts with any other installer, install order does not matter because no files are going to be overwritten, they will all end up in the game.

The conflicts report for each installer is the key.

Watch this space a few updates en-route within the next couple of hours, just finishing off.

@ Klaus and Decrepit - Check the new version....

A bit more polish plus....

Update 31 Dec 2010

Basics and installers intro pdf has a new updated screen in the intro to installers section, Screen 4, expanding a little and hopefully clarifying the subject of Install order

The Installers Advanced pdf has a new screen, the last one highlighting Markers in the installers list. And the creation of the UOP Bain has now moved to....

New file - Installers Creation pdf - Which has a new walkthrough creating a BAIN for DarkUI DarN 1.6

New file - INI Tweaks, necessary for use with the DarkUI DarN BAIN (Theres a few extras in there too).

Edit: The Optional file including all JPGs from all PDFs updated accordingly

Edit2: All files on both TESNexus and TESAlliance now updated, Will update all the images on TESNexus later.

That sounds nice, I`m downloading it right now.

I don`t know why, but I`m not authorised to edit my post above, at least the forum says so, if I try...

I think it`s totally clear now what the term "higher order" refers to and explanations for make a BAIN installer out of DarkUI DarN are added too. :thumbsup:

Thanks!

:) Excellent, well I think I can consider the Basics and Intro Guide final now.

Unless there are any major changes to Wrye bash in the future, but I cant see that happening, there will be advancements and additions obviously the Wrye Bash team are constantly endeavoring to improve it, but as far as the guide is concerned it will only require occasional slight changes.

Hope you do okay with the DarkUI Bain.

I have a BCF for the original DarkUI, but not for the DarNified version


Anyway, nice job with the guides alt3rn1ty.
- Tomlong75210

Thank you, and in case your poll thread wanders off into forum oblivion - Permission given here also for you to utilise the Wrye Bash Pictorial Guide JPGs as you require using your web site skills to present the information in a way I cant cover (Hmm come to think of it I had better put this on TESNexus too in case this thread gets munched one day) - Edit: Done, in the Credits and Permissions

:biggrin: First time I read this I did not realise you meant for public use :facepalm:

Just DL'd & works fine for me :goodjob: Linked in the WBPG Description.

Thanks for confirming I've had a few users with installation issues since doing that, but I think most of them are using OBMM and it doesn't seem to be updating the menus properly - not consistently anyway :brokencomputer:

Question out to anyone - During making the walkthrough of the DarkUI Darn BAIN, theres one element I found very little information on....

Has anyone, or does anyone, use AF/KCAS Leveling mod anymore?

I have never seen or used it, and from what I have read it sounds like an old un-supported mod now, possibly replaced by newer/better mods IDK

I am wondering if I can cut that bit out of that walkthrough in the Installers Creation PDF.

Edit: Nvm - Found it (well KCAS that is, the three links to AF Leveling I have found seem to be dead), no longer being developed and with Moderator and Author notes at the start of the description warning that with newer versions of Oblivion it may not work, however in light of the authors note and that people out there may still be using it ... Leaving KCAS support in the BAIN walkthrough. http://www.tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=1888

I think I missed this period of Modding Oblivion (stayed with morrowind for ages after Oblivion release)

Another update in progress - Will upload in the next hour the Installers Creation PDF needs another screen for the DarkUI DarN walkthrough (I missed the option during rebuild the bashed patch to Tweak Assorted - Darnified Books in the last upload)

The WBPG Complete JPG's has already been re-uploaded with the new screen included.

All done on TESNexus, just about to update TESAlliance.

Apologies if you downloaded previously, but there is nothing serious missed (so if you created the DarkUI DarN BAIN already, just check out the new screen 12) ... and a slightly modified 11 which previously stated you would not need to rebuild the bashed patch.

Thanks for the screenshot for Oblivion XP I posted a comment with a link to your guide. So further down in the list is a higher priority? Yeah, that is weird I guess the idea is that it's the order of installation, so later in the list is installed last... I think it's also confusing that when you look at the conflicts, it says "Lower". It's too bad they didn't choose a different term. I guess they mean "lower priority" or something...

Anyway I'll grab the latest versions of your guides. Great work!

No problem, check out Screen 4 of the Intro to installers section of the new Basics guide, helps a bit more with Install order understanding.