[quote name='Larissa Mem' date='Mar 13 2006, 10:55 PM']
I saw your question in the other thread.

Yeah! Larissa!
This Helps Loads. It's funny, but I couldn't figure out how to get back to that other thread. I got there in a round about way from another web site. It's just when I got on to this forum again that I couldn't find it: (I did mention that I was a dummy didn't I?)

I was afraid that if I just put it in my Morrowind folder that it would mess up the files that I'd already been working with or couldn't/wouldn't remember them or something and I'd have to start over from scratch. I got a lot of mods installed and thousands of hours with this present character and didn't want to do this at this time. Although I plan on getting me a new hard drive soon, (been eye-ballin one of those 500 GB drives) and figured I'd start everything new at that time anyway.

Yes I have both Wrye Mash versions .60 and .63. along with both python programs although the Python programs are already installed so I shouldn't have to do any changing with those. And Yes! I keep everything in a separate back-up folder too. If its as easy as stated then it shouldn't matter which version I install I could have fun playing yo-yo with them. Something I learned not do with mods.

By-the-way, If you happen to run into the person who was so helpful with my other post please let him/her know that I am really sorry that I didn't get to see it and that I thank them for trying to help me anyway.

And thank YOU, for helping me here!

so if you've got a save and you use Aduls_library_revised.esp I'd suggest not using the Repair All function. Doing that cleaned out everything in that cell in mod of importance (doors, npcs and the book chest). Now there may be a 'do not clean this mod' function, but if there is, I don't know how to use it

also, if you wanted to keep loot from a mod, but not the mod itself, wouldn't it just be easier to load the mod in enchanted editor and delete everything except for the 3Is? (items leveled, Items Miscellaneous and Ingredients) And then of course a certain script if it's attached to a weapon or other item and a global if it's attached to that script

Thanks for such an informative thread.

I started using Wyre Mash about 3 weeks ago and it's a great program. However I've recently run into a problem. After a crash-to-desktop experience with morrowind, Wyre Mash now crashes when I start it. I followed instructions using command prompt to see the problem and I got this:

C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy>c:\python24\python.exe mash.py 0
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "mash.py", line 17, in ?
app = masher.MashApp(stdOutCode)
File "C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\wx-2.5.3-mswansi\wx\_core.py", line 5301,
in __init__
self._BootstrapApp()
File "C:\Python24\Lib\site-packages\wx-2.5.3-mswansi\wx\_core.py", line 4980,
in _BootstrapApp
return _core_.PyApp__BootstrapApp(*args, **kwargs)
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\masher.py", line 2535
, in OnInit
self.InitData()
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\masher.py", line 2578
, in InitData
mosh.modInfos = mosh.ModInfos(os.path.join(mwDir,'Data Files'))
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\mosh.py", line 2676,
in __init__
FileInfos.__init__(self,dir,factory)
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\mosh.py", line 2393,
in __init__
self.table = Table(os.path.join(self.dir,'Mash','Table.pkl'))
File "C:\Program Files\Bethesda Softworks\Morrowind\Mopy\mosh.py", line 262, i
n __init__
inData = http://forums.bethsoft.com/index.php?/topic/258708-wrye-mash-users-guide-to-managing-mods/cPickle.load(ins)
EOFError

I know as much python as I do aramaic, so I've no idea how to rectify this ? whether it requires a simple script fix or perhaps one of the mods I use is causing a conflict, I haven't the foggiest. I've uninstalled and reinstalled python, deleted my mopy folder and then extracted the files again ..and again..

At the end of my rope ....Hope someone can help. Thanks

Excellent answer.

"Other person"

Wrye,

This to me is what this thread is about. I couldn't have given this sort of detailed answer, and I doubt that you could have.

Yes, it is an excellent reply, Fergus. Thanks, Larissa Mem.
And ya know, not only has Wrye given us an outstanding utility that we are trying to learn to use better but he is the only utility maker that I know of who is still here on the forums, supporting people with their questions about it, including this thread. A little recognition of that might not go amiss.
So . . . maybe if we could all move forward in a co-operative way, that would be a good thing.:nod:

[Minor edit to opening post.]

I am now using Wrye Mash for managing my saves and adding and removing mods from my leveled lists and using TEStool to clean my mods and using TESPCD to look for conflicts.

I really think that Wrye Mash is a brilliant program and the creator should be given mad props. :goodjob:

:D

OK, maybe I missed it - a newly installed mod with a yellow check box,
is the correct solution:
--> 'Masters'
--> 'File' RIGHT Click
--> LEFT Click 'Update'

That seemed to reset the mod and the master, in this case Morrowind, to the expected Green and Blue respectively. Looks good but I am slightly unsure what happened.
The mod .esp was updated to the master?


[N.B. I happen to agree with you, Bonk.]

Absolutely mad props! I couldn't agree more. I wouldn't be trying to do this if I didn't want to help people use Mash, and as I would always answer (rightly or wrongly) the questions people sent in about Mash on the forums, I told Ronin49 about my Mash-question-answering-compulsion, and that's how this all got started. Anyhoo.

Re: repair all. I confess to tending to avoid it myself unless of course I've encountered doubling. I've had an ongoing issues with my journal which I have complained about sporadically in various places. As I think I now understand it from continual reading of the readme, journal entries are globals (?), and Mash would repair those? If you delete a mod, or a save file, will Mash clean your journal of entries that took place while you had that mod installed, and/or while you were using that save? The question is I think equivalent to claudekinnol's question.

claudekinnol, I had that happen to me when I removed ANOTHER mod to the stuff I had stored in Dongle's Caldera Warehouse Tower and then did a repair all. I assume (I should probably stop assuming--let's say my best guess) now is that what happened is that the containers in both mods were not unique containers. In fact I know from looking at Dongle's tower in the CS that the crates where I had all my stuff were just crate_01's and so forth. If the containers in other other house mod had the same IDs, wouldn't a repair all clean out all that stuff?

My understanding (again, perhaps incorrect) was that if I placed my Caldera Warehouse Tower on my safe cell list, and THEN repaired all, the stuff in the tower (which was not dependent on the mod I was removing--it was all from other mods in my game and just random ingredients, sword of white woe, etc.) would have stayed. But either 1) that's not how safe cell works or 2) it works that way, but I didn't do it right. That's what my question was about up above. If 2), do I need to put "Caldera, Warehouse Tower" or however it appears in the CS, along with quotes?

Whew. What else. Yes, Ronin49--yellow box, that's what I finally did to fix all my yellow mods. Took me forever to figure out (it helped that Wrye explained the general process above. ). I think it must be the same thing as that whole thing they tell you to do when you encounter the annoying message about master files having changed in your warnings.txt, of "load it in the CS, load the games' master files, and then resave, blah blah blah." Another example of how much easier life is with Mash, in my view--doing it in Mash took literally 1 second, loading the CS takes alone takes much more than that on my comp.

Edit: Fergus, thank you for being the other person. Sorry, I meant to link to your post, but lost the link in the extensive process of looking up things and opening and closing various windows.

Hello,

Well... It is not an advanced technique for a lot of people... But I know a few others who don't know anything else than double click. Sometimes it leads to really strange results. :shrug:

I play with only one character at a time!
I'm nearly sure that you can have more than one character:

- Play with character 1
- use mod 11, 12, 13

- Play with character 2
- use mod 21, 22, 23

1 - Prepare games
- launch Wrye Mash
- check mods you want to use for character 1
- choose mods load order (change date)
- close Wrye Mash
- launch TesTool
- create "Merged_objects.esp"
- close TesTool
- Rename "Merged_objects.esp" to "Merged_objects1.esp"
- close TesTool
- launch Wrye Mash
- copy-paste "Mashed Lists.esp" from \Morrowind\Mopy\Extras to \Morrowind\Data Files
- Mashed Lists.esp -> right-click -> import -> Merged Lists...
- close Wrye Mash
- Rename it to "Mashed Lists1.esp"
You should do the previous things for the two games you want to play. The second time, replace each "1" with a "2"
2 - Begin to play
- launch Wrye Mash
- check all the mods for character 1
(mod11, mod12, mod13, Meged_objects1, Mashed Lists1)
- quit Wrye Mash, then launch Morrowind
- play, save (choose a name, then add a "1" at the beginning) and quit
- launch Wrye Mash
- check all the mods for character 2
(mod21, mod22, mod13, Meged_objects2, Mashed Lists2)
- quit Wrye Mash, then launch Morrowind
- play, save (choose a name, then add a "2" at the beginning) and quit
3 - Changing of character
a ) you were using character 1 and you want to use character 2
- launch Wrye Mash
- go to the save tab
- right-click on the save that you want to use (begin with a "2") -> Load master
- quit Wrye Mash
- launch game
b ) you were using character 2 and you want to use character 1
- well, you can try to do the same as above with changing the "2" to "1" and the "1" to "2"
- else, you can keep playing with character 2
4 - Changing mods lists for a character
a ) character 1
- launch Wrye Mash
- select save tab
- choose the save for which you want to change mods lists
- right-click -> Load master
- add / remove mods

- if it is needed, repair your save
- quit Wrye Mash
- play
b ) character 2
- same as above, but change every "1" to "2"
- No, there is no "1" above! :rofl:

I think that there are different situation:
- Merged objects
I don't think it can be a problem if you remove a mod that was changing an object and keep the same Merged_objects.esp, but you'll keep the same stat for this object than before removing the mod (because informations about the object are stored in the mod AND in Merged_objects.esp)
- Merged Lists
Example:
lvllist1 is defined in Morrowind.esm.
It is also modified by mod1 and mod2, and mod1 add new creature type to this list.
You create Mashed Lists.esp with information from esm + mod1 + mod2.
Now, if you remove mod1, lvllist1 stored in Mashed Lists.esp still need the new creature added by mod1, and which are not still available.
Then, you have a problem:
"IDofcreature missing in Master Files"



Yes, if you do this, you update the "header" of the esp, which is a small piece at the beginning of the esp which stores data like name and date of the esm which are needed. And by doing this, you remove " the annoying message about master files having changed in your warnings.txt".
To remove this message:
1 - Wrye Mash
- Click on the mod name
- Click in the "Masters" tab
- Click on save
2 - Launch TesTool
- Select "Manage Active Plug-ins"
- Select all the mods that need to be updated
- Click on "Update header"
3 - TESCS
No, you don't want to know how to do with the TESCS, because it can lead you to make a "dirty" mod.

Bjam
Edit: invert "above" and "1"

Ummmmh . . .not quite. In this case, simply clicking on the 'Masters' box did not do it; had to click 'Update' scrolling down from 'Masters' as described above. Then it cleared, updated. Seems like nit-picking perhaps but it would be good to be precise with this.

Machiavella: Mash stores data in several places. One of those is Data Files\Mash\Table.pkl. It looks like that file is corrupted on your computer. A Morrowind CTD should not cause this, though perhaps there's a more systematic problem like a hard disk failure, or some other problem with your file system. Simplest solution is to delete the Table.pkl file and try re-starting Mash. That should fix the problem, though you'll lose some information. (Memorized modification times, assigned updaters, group and rating information.)

Ronin49: Yellow Checkbox: As pointed out in Mash docs and earlier in this thread, Yellow means the master mod has changed since the mod/save was created. E.g., for mods, it means that the mod was built on an older version of a Bethesda Master. You can use Mash to update and make the yellow go away, but what I do is open up the mod in TESCS (while co-loading GMST Vaccine.esp to avoid GMST contamination), and then resave it.

Repair All: Should always be safe to use. I would suggest using it at least once in a while after adding/removing mods.

Journal entries are not globals. Encountered Journal entries affect the save game in two ways: INFO records and the JOUR record. Mash doesn't change either of those. If you remove a mod and then play the savegame, Morrowind will remove the associated INFO records, but will not clean the JOUR record. Which means that you'll still see the journal entries in the day by day journal.

Adul/Cleaning: First, there's a reason why Mash spits out a repair log when it cleans a mod. It's worth glancing over to see if it makes sense. If you're worried, you can always revert to backup. Second, if you play and see a problem, try using a revert to backup. Third, the described problem doesn't sound like Wrye Mash, but instead like innate mod conflict -- e.g., like CK is running another mod that adds stuff to the Revised Library cell. Innate mod conflict typically causes doors, npcs and other refs persists objects to disappear. (Chests are not usually refs persist, but I'll wager that the chest in Adul Library's is refs persist.) (BTW, Mash does have a facility to help deal with innate mod conflicts.)

The Safe Cell list is only used by the Ref Removers facility -- i.e., not by Repair All.

A commonly named container should not be any more likely to be removed than a non-unique reference. (In fact, if anything, it would be the other way around for reasons too technical to describe here.)

BJAM: I skimmed a bit, but all that looks correct. (I use the TESCS method to update older mods, but perhaps that's a little conservative.)

Click in Masters Tab: That's what I do. Could be that you you have to click on top of an item though rather than just anywhere in the masters box. (I can't test it at the moment.) (By "Master's Box," he's talking about the white list box where the masters actually appear, not the "File/Num" column header or the "Masters" label over the column header.

they were all unique except maybe the guards. And the chest was definitely unique, as it had a script attached to it.

Well, that's quite irrelevant because I was entirely wrong. Did you see what Wrye posted?

I have substantial edits that I'm trying to enter today and in the next few days--in between forum shut-downs. If there's anything too subtle to see, I'll bold it so there's no need to reread a ton of text. I think that reducing the number of issues this document deals with rather than increasing them is wise.

Having said that, if there are other issues anyone wants addressed, it would be good to mention those now. One of some significance I haven't dealt with: texture replacers? Should I attempt to? There is a specific way to handle them in Mash. I avoid them (large-scale replacers, that is) for various reasons, but I know they are quite an important part of others' games.

This isn't meant to be an endless process. Nobody wants to end up producing something that's full of errors and is of no use, but Wrye and others have been extremely helpful and generous in devoting time to explaining and answering questions. I think the goal is to wrap it up quite soon in light of these responses. So . . . last call(ish?) for questions, issues, problems, etc.

By the way, remember that there is a separate Rel/Question thread for Mash.

Hello,


I prefer to avoid to talk about updating Master files with TESCS, because it can lead to a dirty mod. Most of the time, I only read "load in TESCS and save", which sometimes is good... but not always (I don't want to talk about the issue with loading / saving with TESCS and GMST contamination here).
I prefer to say "Use Mash", as I'm sure that you can't break anything if you try to update header with this tool. But, of course, using Mash or TESCS AND GMST Vaccine as you describe above does exactly the same thing (or also TESTool / update header).

Thanks! It is not "nit-picking*" (well, it is maybe a little bit... ), we need to make things simple and easy if we want to be sure that everybody understand how to use Mash.
*http://www.wordreference.com/ gave me a surprizing translation for this word. I originally thought that you meant "pointilleux" (Word Reference: fastidious, fuddy-duddy), and even if I had understood the global sense of the sentence, I didn't expected this translation. If some of you have got some time to spare:
- translate nit-picking
- retranslate word-by-word the result it gave to you
- Poor fly

Yes, exactly. Thank you to have clarify this for everybody here. I'm sorry, I know that my english skills are sometimes not good enough to describe things really correctly. And it's even worse for "technical" problem... :shrug:

Bjam

I believe you can in fact do it either way, but I just rewrote instructions as per bjam/Wrye's comments. I think you can:

1. Click on mod.
2. Right click on bar above masters file names
3. Click update
4. Press Save

or

1. Click on mod.
2. Click INSIDE the masters' box
3. See a pop-up message that warns you that it will update it to the masters' list and that this could cause changes, press okay
4. Press save

I would prefer to describe it the first way, since that's anologous to how I describe the process in the saves part of the document. (There too there are two ways to update a save game, I think, after you have synced at least one game to your load list--by using sync to load or by using update.) But I'd want to make sure they are both the same. (Talk about nit-picky.)


Well, that's because the phrase is expressive in English (I am trying not to say negative things about other languages here. ) It does mean fastidious, but it also literally comes from looking for the small eggs of parasite-type bugs.

I believe that was it, thanks,

Update vs. Sync to Load List: The "Master List Updating" section of current Mash docs is a little misleading since it implies that all saves should be blue. In fact, green is also natural/normal so long as you don't attempt to play a green game. (I've detailed Blue vs. Green earlier in this topic.) So, this could be part of the source of confusion here.

In short, "Update" will at least make a save game green (and maybe blue, depending on masters and current load list). OTOH, "Sync to Load List" WILL make a save game blue. Sync to Load works by first doing an Update, and then deleteing/adding mods to the save game's master list so that the master list matches the load list.

There are times in which the user should NOT use sync to load list:
1) User doesn't want to match current load list. (Duh.)
2) User needs to adjust to a mod that's been renamed or updated. In this case: a) Use update. B) Manually edit masters list, renaming mods as needed. c) [optional] Use sync to load list. d) save changes.

Exception to the exception... Mash is pretty good about handling mods that have been renamed. E.g., if you use Mash to rename a mod, Mash remembers that. If you then Update a save that depends on the mod that's been renamed, Mash will remember the rename and apply it during the Update process.

Update on click inside the masters box is a convenience short cut. For beginners, it's better to start by talking about the "Sync to Load List" option on the column context menu. (As LM said.)

I don't believe that the blue/green issue is confusing since you clarified it. I addressed it above in the updated substantive posts and had assumed that you'd been reading those--but of course it's a huge hassle to go back and go over those. I'll cull those for remaining questions and append them to the final posts, which makes more sense.

Okay, I worked my way through the remarks about updating. I think I understand them. I'll change the instructions about updating to return to the syncing to load process.

Questions from above thread:

1. I understand that Mash is the only program that will cleaned saves for you, is that correct? I know about DinkumThinkum's "How to Deep Clean a Save Game" process, but that's not precisely the same thing. I don't want to say only if it's not the only one . . . although I would still use a positive adjective.

2. This is the new section about mod colors, revised after a more careful reading of the readme and a lot of experimenting with Mash: "Check all the mods you want to be active (that is, check all the mods you want to play.) Now, examine the colors of the checkboxes of your mods. You need to make sure the mods are in good shape. WryeMash uses a color-coding sytem to let you know what the "health" of your mods and your save-games is. If any mods
are showing red or pinky-orange, it's because there are two or more mods that have the very same date and time of creation. Since we're trying to make a clear order for the mods to go in, having mods that load at the exact same time is no good. Mash will highlight mods like this for you and ask you to fix them. It's easy to change the time Mash thinks a mod was created by typing a new time in one of the boxes to the right of the mod, and then going down below that box to click save. (This part of the Mash menu, where the Mod or Save name, time, and Masters list is displayed, is called the "details" box.)

Voila--the mods should turn a healthy green. If the mod is yellow, that means that the mod (or another mod it depends on [?]) was created using a different version of Morrowind than the one you are using. For example, the mod-maker only had Morrowind, and you have GOTY. [Okay, do I _finally_ have this right? Or does it have to do with what version of each of the master .esms you have (which patch, etc.?) (Or something else entirely?]

3. Overall revision on Section 4--cleaning save games. Too many to mention. Do I have it correct though that even if you do have green saves, you should not save blue saves in those slots? Also, is there a way to sync more than one save to the load list and repair it, or does one need to go save by save by save?

4. Reverting to Backup, Duplicating, and Snapshot, again. Okay, I understand all of these but snapshot. I take it that snapshot records the condition of your mods during a single time-slice. At T1 the mod is red, say, at T2 it's green, and T3 it might be gone.

Does snapshot apply to saves, however? As far as I can tell it appliees to mods only, but I may not have that right.

Thanks once more for all the help.

As I posted a couple of sections back, I don't think that it's worth my time to edit a document of something that's already well documented in mash. (Time is limited and I'm a slow writer/editor. That's why I wanted a list of topics and a description of how things are not being covered well. Ronin stepped in to "cool things down," I guess, but I still haven't seen such a list.)

So here, I'm pretty much just concerned with stuff that's not covered in Mash docs, or that is commonly misunderstood, etc.


Yes. Especially since "will clean saves for you" implies automation. You can use EE to do some cleaning, but it's certainly not automatic. Of course, Mash does a lot more than just clean save games, and in some of those areas, there's more competition. E.g., several tools other than mash allow dialog export/import.

Snapshots: Dang. I forget, can you take snapshots of saves? (I don't have Mash handy at the moment.) I think so, but I never used the feature (except maybe to test.) Suppose that you usually stick with one savegame (unwise, but suppose you did). You might take a snapshot every week just as an extreme backup possibility. E.g., suppose that you find out months after starting to use a mod, that you can't remove it -- but now you need to. If you were taking save regularly, you could retrieve a snapshot copy of the save taken before you started using the mod.

Thank you for those very helpful answers. Again, your help is very much appreciated, as I realize this is not something you want to spend your time on.

I did not mean to imply I wanted you to review the document. On the contrary, the purpose of the last post was to highlight individual questions that remain unclear to me from the readme. (I see the post was still wordy--apologies.)

- Can you update and/or sync to load multiple saves at one time?

I do not see this specifically addressed in the readme. I have attempted syncing one game to the load list, shift-clicking to highlight all remaining saves, and clicking update. This merely updates one save (the clicked-on save). Obviously, it would be far easier to be able to sync ALL saves to a load list at one time rather than having to do it for each one. Same with repair all. I may keep 10-20 saves going at a time.

There should be no need for you to answer questions having more to do with the Morrowind game engine in general than with WryeMash, so I will pursue answers to those elsewhere.

Thanks once more.

Can you update and/or sync to load multiple saves at one time?

No. Mostly because it's poor practice to be that casual about "Sync To Load". The better practice is to only sync the saves that you're about to play. (And as I've said before, an even safer practice is to duplicate the save you want to play and then sync the duplicated save.)

OTOH, Mash does allow experienced users to Update (not Sync) saves with relative ease. Again, I would discourage overdoing this, but sometimes it's desirable (e.g., after updating a merge esp that a bunch of mods depend on), and compared to Sync to Load, it's much less likely to do something undesirable.

(Relatively) Quick Update (Experienced Users Only):
* Click on any master in the masters list box. If this pop ups a confirmation dialog, then click the checkmark to prevent the confirmation from showing next time.
* Do a quick scroll/scan of the masters.
* Click Save.
Note I would not advise a newbie to do this, because they might accidentally click in the masters box and then not have a clue as to why "Save" is suddenly available and what the dangers of clicking in it are. Also, only an experienced user would know how carefully they need to scroll/scan the master list before clicking save.

Hello,

Just a small bump for a very useful topic.

Bjam

Thanks, bjam. Might even get around to finishing it some day . . . :shrug:

WAAAHOOOOOOOOOO!!! I'm bookmarking this thread so I can refer back to it constantly. Once I get the dern shortcut to load properly. I've messed with my target arguments so often I haven't the slightest idea where anything is anymore. :/ But this is a gem. Thanks for putting this up, Ronin and Larissa!