Sure, if you're looking at the world of Skyrim and Nirn as a whole like ours, then what I said could be offensive. But in a world where the races actually are different, some even come from different higher beings, then our views on racism on earth are completely irrelevant to how the peoples of Nirn interact with each other. Keeping Khajiit out of the cities because they sell drugs or not caring a whole lot what the Dunmer in the Gray Quarter do while a civil war is going on is not "evil".

Well, that's assuming all Khajiit sell skooma, which they don't.

Skyrim is 5 years old. Everything about it has been discussed to the point of tediousness.

We do not even know that for certain. Our source for this information is Ralof. Ralof himself doesn't sound too sure about the facts. He asks us, "You were trying to cross the border, right?" This doesn't sound like someone who knows something to be indisputably true. For all we know, it was just some idle, unsubstantiated rumor he overheard.

I haven't played Skyrim in a couple years now, but I'm about 95% sure they sold either moon sugar, skooma or both.

Tamriel is so bound together that Cyrodiil ould have to intervene and form an alliance with Skyrim if the Aldmeri Dominion was to attack Skyrim head on. Same if the situation was reversed. Or do you think that Skyrim and Cyrodiil are just going to let the Thalmor become their next door neighbors without resistance?

I kinda agree with Lady Selene that this topic has been beaten to death so many times it is no longer interesting but I will make one contribution at least.

Tamriel has always been a brutal place, often filled with atrocities like slavery and such, where the strong rule the weak for as long as they can. I dare say the Khajiit and Argonians have it better in Windhelm than they did back in Morrowind, where they were slaves and could be killed willi nilli by their often insane Telvanni overlords without any right to object.

Seems like the folks who argue "racism" in these threads are imposing their own modern views on the matter. I prefer to roleplay a character from the point of view of someone who is from Tamriel and those folks have quite different racial attitudes than what we would consider acceptable today. The Empire tolerated slavery in Morrowind, and I would argue that the modern real world views on racism are much more enlightened than even the most enlightened supporter of the Empire.

I am not sure why its okay to roleplay assassins and daedra worshippers (basically devil worshipers) in the game, and no one seems to have the level of hate for the Dark Brotherhood or Boetheia (who wants you to betray and murder your friends) but so many people freak out so much about a little racism.

I say embrace racism! It's a vibrant part of the game, just as much as the Dark Brotherhood and the daedra. I don't begrudge stormcloaks or nords their attitudes towards the other races any more than I did the attitudes of the dunmer against other races in Morrowind. It's stuff like this makes the game interesting. Roleplaying a racist who is otherwise a decent guy or gal can be as much fun as roleplaying an assassin or daedra worshipper.

And I probably should not need to add this last part but I feel I must for clarity -- my advocacy of racism in the video game against make believe races in no way should be construed as supporting it in real life. Racism in real life should be universally condemned, just like betrayal and murder of your friends and assassination.

Perhaps, but it does seem to imply that we weren't caught at the same time and place as Ralof, which begs the question why they would be executing us as a stormcloak in the first place. I think it was either sloppy writing, or the location of darkwater crossing was changed after the dialog had been written.

Or perhaps they intentionally put that inconsistency in the dialog to mess with our heads. I could totally see some writer at Bethesda saying something like this.

Hey Bob, look at what I did with the intro dialog here. Those idiots on the forums will be debating this little inconsistency for years. Ha, ha ha. Serves them write for saying we don't know how to write good quests . . .

Bingo. You have to remember that the way you see the world is completely different. Racism is a worldview where you view people differently based on their genetics. The people of Nirn have no other option than to view the world this way when there are legitimately different races. Nords and Dunmer have been cultural enemies for thousands of years. They worship different gods (in a world where these gods all exist)/believe rightly that they descend from legitimately different stock. Everybody is prejudice against everybody else. We saw first hand in Morrowind how utterly racist the Dunmer people are.. yet we all love Redoran and Telvanni anyway.


And with all that being said, Ulfric still allows elves to own wealthy property in his city so long as he feels they contribute positively. I don't think he hates all other races, but I do think he will side with the Nords before anybody else. That, imo, is fine and something I'd expect Redoran to do in Morrowind, the Aldmer to do in Summerset, etc etc. The only cosmopolitan flavour in Tamriel comes from the Empire itself and even then.. they can pretty "racist".

That's a lot of sacred cows killed in one post. o7


Good point thought: we see more people (players, not characters) exhibit visceral dislike of the Stormcloaks than do assassins or worshippers of the most evil Daedra in the game.

A-ha! Found the racist who then pretends he is not a racist!

Jokes aside, I think you bring up a fair point. Real-world views about racism can't be applied 1:1 to Tamriel. And people seem to forget that every race and every province has a pretty sizable chunk of racists. But I don't think this means you can't apply it at all. Look at Brunwulf Free-Winter for example. He is very much against the racism that some of his fellow Nords espouse. But yes, racism in the games definitely adds to the immersion, interest, and vibrancy of the series.

Never really thought about it in comparison to roleplaying assassins, now that you bring that up. Then again, I don't roleplay assassins (*scoff* I am an upstanding, virtuous citizen after all *scoff*) It is weird that people don't complain about murder nearly as much as racism.

...Or of the empire.

All of which leads me to the opinion that this is one of the best-written badly-written quest lines in the game. It has managed to keep stirred passions alive for 5 years.

yeah, Talos wasn't a god till the Warp in the West which took place in the mid-late 3rd era..


and there was a line in Oblivion (a Bruma priest IIRC) where most Nords refused to accept Akatosh and Talos, and instead worshipped "their Dragon Ysmir".. which is what makes the Stormcloak affiliated character focusing so much on Imperial gods while ignoring the actual Nordic ones but going "ohh, the old ways!" downright hilarious

Yeah, like what glargg said, it's one of the best badly written questlines in the game. Beth has a habit of ignoring its own lore. I agree that worshipping old nord gods would have made more sense but then Beth would have needed to figured out another rally cry for the Stormcloak rebellion since the Thalmor don't care about people worshipping old gods, only the new man God Talos.

Ysmir is Talos, who they associate with dragons positively, as opposed to Alduin and Akatosh. Not really any major inconsistency there.

The Dominion already is a next neighbor for the Empire. Alinor and Valenwood are the core provinces of it and Elsweyr is a part of it as a client state. The Empire tried to fight and almost lost, only reaching a stalemate which resulted the White-Gold Concordat.

The Empire is on the verge of falling into pieces and the Dominion is just waiting patiently it to happen, ready to finish the Empire for good.

Stormcloaks don't take showers very often and smell a lot, so yeah, the Empire for me all the way. Palapatine is DA MAN. Oh wait, wrong universe....

Right, so why is Cyrodiil gonna hold a grudge against Skyrim and let the Dominion set up shop to their north flank when Skyrim just wants independence, while the Thalmor want to wipe out their existence entirely?

What's the old saying about the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_enemy_of_my_enemy_is_my_friend?

because by killing the Regional governor, wiping out the military presence, forcing all politicians who don't agree with them into exile, and being blamed for the death of an emperor they showed they are just as much the Empires enemy as the Dominion (if not more so)



if I went to Alberta, killed all of the provinces politicians, killed every member of the Military in the province, and the plane carrying tredeau just crashed right above where I have men stationed as I claim Alberta a sovereign nation under my rule, do you actually think the Canadian Government would just say "yeah sure thats fine, want to help us with our military escapades at least?"..



in Ulfrics Victory, he has done so much harm and open acts of war to the Empire, the empire sees him just as much their enemy as the Dominion..

but at the same time, Ulfrics Skyrim is the empires enemy as well.. what Ulfric did in his coup are not some minor "ohh, he stole a pack of gum" scenario, he committed multiple open acts of war just like the dominion did before the Great War.. "enemy of enemy" only works when at least one of those sides isn't an enemy, which is not the case..

Actually the "enemy of my enemy" proverb is all about enemies uniting against an even greater mutual enemy. As Winston Churchill famously quipped "if Hitler invaded Hell, I would make at least a favourable reference to the Devil in the House of Commons."

No.

And the 'border' you were apparantly trying to cross was NOT the border out of Skyrim....the ambush was near Darkwater crossing so the border was the one at the edge of Eastmarch.


It throws us with the cart scene because we assume the cart is coming down the mountain path from the closed Skyrim border.


Infact just why we and Ulfric etc are carted all the way out the Helgen is not clear.......its an assumption....but maybe we only go to Helgen because that is where Gen Tullius happens to be in the province at the time. Were he back at HQ....we would have been carted out to Solitude for the grand beheading instead.

Just an aside, but I often wonder whether the CW quest would have been helped by having some factions within each side.

So you have the Stormcloaks under Ulfric, but within his camp different NPCs pushing different agendas. Do some quests for one of them, it increases their standing in the Stormcloaks, in turn influencing Ulfric.

So one agenda might be 'defence of the homeland', and another might be aggressively promoting Nordic superiority. Advancing one closes down the other, New Vegas style.

Likewise with the Imperials. Follow the party line, or help a more ambitious officer who has different ideas about how the CW should be fought.

Essentially, it would allow you a little more personalisation around why your character is getting involved.

There's probably a mod that already does this, mind...

Exactly. They MIGHT be able to reconcile in order to fight the Thalmor, but it certainly wouldn't happen soon. "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" axiom is not always applicable, and has sometimes screwed groups over before. Besides, them uniting would require practical thinking, something Ulfric has arguably not exhibited much of. And would Ulfric ask the Empire for aid? I doubt his ego would let him do that.

Sure, an independent Skyrim and the remnants of the Empire COULD feasibly team up. Hell, the Nords, Dunmer, and Argonians found a way to overcome differences (at least, for the most part) for the events of ESO. But would they be able to in time to take on the Aldmeri Dominion? I highly doubt it. And even if they did work together, tensions could easily tear them apart.