I'm pretty sure Brunwulf Free-Winter is the one mentions Ulfirc only intervening when Nords are having trouble with bandits. He usually hangs out in the Windhelm marketplace and the Gray Quarter if he hasn't replaced Ulfric as Jarl.

How ironic, considering that aside from its native inhabitants america was populated entirely by mass immigration. Let me guess, you're a Trump supporter?

Its "native inhabitants" were immigrants too.

None of that is true unless you redefine words in an Orwellian fashion. I was born here and am by refit ion not an immigrant; I am a native.. But everybody living here, of any ancestry, is the descendant of immigrants, unless you believe some people popped out of the soil in America.


Some people's ancestors came earlier than others, that's all. Anybody born here is a native, anybody not born here is an immigrant. It really is that simple.


Right now our immigration rate is about as high as it's ever been in our history, and it is not a good thing for social stability. Europe is being hit even worse. There's no doubt in my mind that Skyrim would have similar issues socially integrating massive numbers of refugees.

Methinks this thread is dangerously close to getting locked.

Well, it's all related to themes present in the game. Bethesda is the one that decided to put in questions about civil war, immigration, disaster refugees, cultural assimilation and religious freedom into the game; hard for them to complain if the same issues get discussed on the forums.

I'm not sure how trustworthy Brunwulf is. He says Ulfric would kick out every non-Nord in Skyrim if he could. There are numerous examples that demonstrate how that isn't really an honest statement. Either way though, that the guy doesn't care that much about other races caravans or settlements getting hit by bandits isn't really a cause for concern to me. Not like he's got much effort to spend on other things, and considering the scope of the war he's fighting, it makes sense that he'd be concerned about Nords getting hit, as Nords will make up most of his army and support.

He's not wrong. Multiculturalism doesn't work when those cultures are contradictory in values. Everybody must assimilate to Skyrim's customs or peace out. Funny, most Empire supporters are Americans, who revolted against an Empire who imposed what they thought was an unjust tax. Skyrim, on the other hand, loses her religious freedom to worship her most prominent god-hero.

Do Americans here support the Empire more commonly than the Stormcloaks?


It's funny, I can see the point of both sides; they both have sound arguments. The Empire claims they're doing what they have to to recover from the war and avoid Thalmor dominion over all of Tamriel; the Stormcloaks are claiming religious freedom. On the downside, the Empire is stepping on religious freedom and the Stormcloaks, while they have a valid complaint about religious liberty and the cultural effects of mass immigration, are perhaps inattentive to the effect of some of their laws on non-Nords. Then again, there are plenty of Dunmer, etc. in Skyrim who seem to get along just fine, even in holds aligned with the Stormcloaks; it seems as though the only place they run into trouble is inside Windhelm itself, where they concentrate.


I haven't played either storyline yet, so I can't speak to any details discovered in those lines, but it seems both sides have a sound defense of their actions and a legit complaint against the other side. What they should do is to negotiate a peace, Ulfric agrees to support Elisif as High King Queen of Skyrim, all rebel Stormcloaks are pardoned, Ulfric remains jarl of his hold, the Empire upholds the ban on Talos-worship...and basically never does anything serious to enforce it, except for a few Potempkin Village style "raids" on some shrine set up somewhere for the express purpose of making the Empire look like it's enforcing the ban.


Then everybody in Skyrim, Cyrodil, Morrowind and High Rock all start breeding like rabbits, having a good six to eight kids per couple, work like hell cultivating land to feed tons of people, forge many, many weapons...and in 25 years go kick the living [censored] out of the slow-breeding Altmer and Bosmer of the Dominion.


EDIT: Also, I think the reason so many people are so quick to immediately make it clear they dislike the Stormcloaks is because that's their reaction at the slightest whiff of anything that might seem even a little kinda-sorta racist. Blatant violations of religious freedom don't faze them; some Nord makes an uncomplimentary reference to Dark Elves, and everybody goes bonkers.

Sorry, I can't remember where it is talked about and I can't find an appropriate link, but it isn't explicitly mentioned in-game. I don't know if you are familiar with the http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers, but those hold Nirn and Mundus together literally and figuratively. If they are deactivated, basically the whole world gets unmade. If you look at creation myths, the Altmer pine for the days pre-Mundus and think mortality is a curse, while some of the human races like the Nords think mortality is a blessing. Mortality was part of what happened as a result of Convention at the Tower of Adamantia. Read under http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Pocket_Guide_to_the_Empire,_3rd_Edition/All_the_Eras_of_Man and about http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Adamantine_Tower. Thus, Thalmor believe that by deactivating these Towers that hold Nirn together, they can return to their pre-mortal state.

Also, can we please not delve into real-world politics here?

'Racist'.

Stormcloak won't send troops out unless it's Nords in trouble, and won't let Argonians or Khajiit in cities. Gets called racist and vilified.

Dunmer view humans and beast races as animals for necromantic purposes and force Khajiit and Argonian slaves to toil in mines. Everybody loves them.

However, no matter how right Ulfric was, so was Saerlund.

Shrug. Part of the reason I find the Dunmer more sympathetic might be because Skyrim is the only Elder Scrolls game I've played so I've never seen any examples of the Dark Elves enslaving anyone. Do the Dunmer even still use slaves by the Fourth Era? Most of the Dunmer in Skyrim seem like rather nice people, even if some of them are a bit gloomy and defeatist while the Stormcloaks support quite a few polices I don't agree with.

When you say "i don't agree with" are you referring to your real world self? Are you applying the same standards and criteria to the stormcloaks that you might apply when judging a real world political organization?

Pretty much. Sometimes I set aside my personal, outside the game feelings for the sake of RPing but in the meta sense, I'm pro-Empire.

I....personally.....do not like Dunmer!


Whenever they speak it sounds to my ears like an oily condescension.


Their tone, accent and cadence seems to say...... "You disgust me"


A quick trip to Solstiem did nothing to improve my opinion.


I do not unilaterally regard all Dunmer with a burning hatred....a few I tolerate


And one....for some reason that escapes me..... Makes me all gooey


"Valdsea Giryon" found in Candlehearth hall (sigh)


I have stared at that grey face for so long trying to work out her attraction

Its clearly not Barbie doll beauty

But....omg....so sixy

The funny part is that I feel nobody who applies real life worldview to the situation would want to live under an Empire, especially one that executes others without trial or outlaws public religious expression.

How do you handle aspects of the game like the Dark Brotherhood or daedric quests like Boethia where she asks you to betray and murder your friends? I am wondering if you have the same feelings about them as you do the stormcloaks.

I have a theory that a lot of people embrace things like the DB and daedra because those things are so obviously make believe parts of a video game that people who would never dream of such things in the real world can embrace them in a video game because we all know its make believe. Most of us have never come face to face with an assassin or a murderer in the real world. But we probably know someone who is racist or has personal views on immigration that we disagree with. When it comes to topics like racism and immigration, those topics are too close to home in real life, so I think people have a harder time treating it as a make believe part of a make believe world and instead let their personal views on those topics govern how they view or play the game, where they might go into total make believe mode when playing the dark brotherhood or daedra questlines.

In Morrowind, where the racism rose to the level of outright slavery (which was legally abolished pretty much worldwide long before any of us were born), it may have been easier for people to dismiss it as part of a make believe world than in Skyrim where the issues of racism and immigration were presented in ways that makes it easy to draw modern real world parallels to people we actually know or politicians we can actually vote for (or against).

P.S. Sorry Radersofthelostarc, trying to walk a fine line here of not discussing real world politics (cause I agree we shouldn't do that) but I don't think the civil war debate can be anolyzed entirely in a vacuum either. These civil war debates have become legendary for the intensity and I think a lot of that is because the issues in the game mirror real world issues that are playing out on the world stage as we play. That wasn't the case for slavery in Morrowind or the issues with murder and betrayal presented by the DB or daedra quests.

The Dark Brotherhood doesn't really bother me. Maybe part of it is because I've never had any real life encounters with murderers but there's more to it than that. The main reason I don't like the Stormcloaks is because of how all encompassing their bigotry and hatred of other races is. How many Stormcloaks have even had spent enough time with Khajiit, Dunmer and Argonians to properly judge them, whether positively or negatively? How many Stormcloaks base their opinions on other races solely on biased stereotypes, racial profiling and centuries old conflicts that the Nords weren't exactly blameless in? I'm guessing the bulk of the Stormcloaks fall into the latter category.

Yes, some Khajiit sell Skooma but is that a valid reason to ban nearly every Khajiit from even entering cities? Heck, it would make more sense to allow Khajiit to sell their wares in cities so that the guards can keep a closer eye on them in case they are selling narcotics or picking pockets. Dunmer and Nords have fought with each other throughout history but is that a valid reason for forcing Dark Elves that likely weren't even alive during those wars to live in slums and ignore their requests for help?

I'm not going to argue that the Dark Brotherhood are paragons of virtue or anything but they don't discriminate mindlessly like the Stormcloaks or kill at random. All of their contracts must have done something to anger an associate enough to perform the Black Sacrament and request the target's death. Even the targets that don't have contracts on them like Vitioria Vici are killed for the good of the Dark Brotherhood as a whole. Heck, the DB is probably the most inclusive organization in Skyrim. They consist of several Nords (one of whom doesn't hide the fact he's a werewolf), a Redguard, a Dunmer, a Breton vampire and an Argonian and all the members consider each other family.

As for Boethethia's quest, I generally only charge the Ebony Blade with my evil characters. The rest of the time, I either lock it up in one of my houses or hide it where it's not likely to be found such as at the bottom of a lake or on top of the Throat of the World. If the character I’m playing is an immoral scumbag them he or she will probably join Namira’s cult, beat Logrolf to death twice and so on. But even my moral characters generally don’t hesitate to kill Sinding since he clearly can’t control himself and is a danger to everyone he encounters. Basically, I treat Daedric quests on a case by case basis. The outcome depends on the character and what the Daedric Prince requires.

Boethia requires you to kill at random. The only requirement is that it be an ally. Also, some of the people the DB has you murder are good people and they don't all seem to benefit the DB as a whole to murder them (how does murdering poor Narfi benefit the DB?). So, I am not sure I see the distinction between mindless discrimination and purposefully killing good people for no reason other than to please a death cult god. Both seem pretty bad to me, if applying my modern sensibility to the issue.

If you have the blade in the first place means you committed a crime to get it. But the ebony blade is not Boethia. It's

I was referring to Boethia. She requires you to

I always get Boethia and Mephala mixed up for some reason. Anyway, I don't mind getting Mephala's Blade since it only requires a bit of pickpocketing. My good characters tell Boethia she can take her Ebony Mail and shove it, after they wipe out all her cultists. So, yeah, case by case basis.

thats already exactly what was happening though..



as several characters ingame say, the empire was turning a blind eye to all Talos worshippers letting them do their thing.. it was only when Ulfric started making a fuss aobut Talos that the dominion pressured them into a position they would have to enforce it

It's all good. I meant it for the instances of current day stuff in America and Europe where we have to be careful, whereas I think you referenced an historical comment from Churchill regarding Hitler (one that I found amusing and don't think I ever heard before). It is pretty safe to say Hitler was a gigantic [censored]. But you are right, it is useful to use real-world political discussions as an anology, just as long as there is not a blatant side taken in the highly charged debates. Indeed, it can be hard to toe the fine line.

I agree that that is probably why people embrace being murderers and daedra worshipers. That and some people just find it fun to murder, but not be a racist.

That's understandable. Their spheres can seemingly overlap sometimes.

These may be useful for future reference:

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Mephala

http://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Boethiah

For the most part I don't think they do, but only because the slaves overthrew their masters, not because the dunmer realized slavery was "wrong."

Dunmer are pretty long lived and can extend their lives even more through magical means. At least some of the Dunmer we meet in TES 5 were around in TES 3.

wasn't there a line in Oblivion about the slave trade in morrowind being renounced?