Ulfric was right.

Care to explain why? Ulfric has a few good points IMO but I can't get behind his "Skyrim for the Nords and everyone else can go jump off a cliff for all I care" attitude.

Yeah, that attitude svcks. My character tend to avoid the civil war as much as possible. Those that have intervened reluctantly side with the Stormcloaks mainly on the basis that they hate the Imperials and their cronies who had me scoped for execution more.

Skyrim is for the Nords, just as the rest of the kingdoms/nations are for their own respective people. Their culture and people have a right to self-preservation, and right to a Nordic-centric worldview. Not like Argonians or Dunmer aren't "racist", heck Dunmer can give any other group of people in Tamriel a real run for their money in terms of isolationism and racism. Skyrim should be able to be proud of their own heritage/country/culture and shouldn't have to apologize for it. Plus I find them more principled, while the Empire is more pragmatic. The Empire was willing cut out it's own soul (Talos) to buy itself a better chance at winning. I find the Stormcloack's principles about Talos much more noble.


That, and the Empire just doesn't seem like much of a boon to the other provinces anymore, either spiritually (Tiber Septim's empire is dead) or economically. It'd be better to form alliances now that the Empire is that much weaker than for the Empire to try to put its boot on the neck of any other provinces. There's also the anecdotal point of the Empire being willing to execute you without warrant and them being pretty pro-torture. They just seem to have lost their honourable right to rule.

do you not see Racism in that? saying that your nation is only meant for your race (a nation that originally belonged to elves at that)?



people should be allowed to openly live where they wish, and a racial superiority group saying "this land is for our race" is the very definition of racism

Which side I choose depends largely on the character I'm playing but outside of the game, I think the Imperials have the better cause. Yeah, the Thalmor are scumbags, Titus Mede might have been able to win the war if he'd allied with Hammerfell and banning Talos worship is a bad idea all around but at the end of the day, the Empire stands for equality and unity and even with a weak emperor, I think those are ideals worth fighting for. And if/when there's a second war with the Thalmor, I can't see Ulfric and the NordsOnlyCloaks winning all by themselves. A Stormcloak victory seems like a short term gain, long term loss scenario to me.

Whether or not I play that way depends on if my character is politically savvy enough to know all that but as a player, that's how I feel.

Yes a stone throne is uncomfortable he told me that too.One of the reasons he is so butthurt.

But you know the Nords joined the empire willingly, nobody forced them and many Nords do not want to leave.

"Skryim is for the Nords" doesn't mean "only Nord's can live in Skyrim." It means that the Nordic way of life is the dominant culture of Skyrim and you can deal with it or move. Besides, who cares about "racism" in a fictional universe where races actually are different. A bit more nuanced when you consider the metaphysical and physical differences between the races of Nirn.

Joined them because of Talos, who the Stormcloaks feel the Empire abandoned.

Did you create this thread in order to bait us into another tedious civil war debate?

Cultural pride is all well and good but the Stormcloaks and quite a few non-SC Nords take things too far. Argonians only being paid 10% of the wages Nords receive, Khajiit caravaners not being allowed to even enter the cities, Dunmer being forced to live in slums and so forth goes beyond a sense of national pride and into bigotry. I'm not saying all the racism in Skyrim is on Ulfic and the Stormcloaks alone but they're not exactly fighting against it either are they?

Talos wasn't even recognized until the 3rd era and even so the Empire was having a hard time converting Nords into Talos worship. Skyrim had been with the empire long before.

Ulfric and the Stormcloaks in general may not realize that leaving the Empire benefits only one faction: the Aldmeri Dominion. It is exactly what Dominion wants, to create division in the world of men and when they are the weakest, pick them up one by one. If Skyrim leaves the Empire, they'll have no allies to call for help if and when Dominion attacks.

There's another great war on the horizon. When it comes, it's better to stand together than alone.

What? ...........what Civil War debate? .......you must be wrong Lady Selene

this one has seen NO evidence of Civil War Debates online or any where else.......that have 100's & 100's of reply's and never reach a conclusion or that can go on forever ......Nup............your so wrong .....giggles

Did you post this to ensure we would


You can't embargo CW debating.....it's central to a big bit of the whole plot.....though I guess if you are personally tired of seeing it all re-hashed...you don't have to join in...hmmm!

Congratulations, you've managed to confirm that every single person who sides with the Imperials made the right choice. Good job.

Western Skyrim doesn't respect Ulfric's claim to the throne, some say. He killed the High King in (arguably fair) combat, and it's Nordic tradition that he gets to be king. However, the Western jarls demand a Moot, which is actually legitimate aswell, and Ulfric refuses to participate, and neither do the rest of the Stormcloak holds as they know they would lose the vote. A Moot can be held if people want to get rid of a High King they consider incompetent, so the Western holds actually do acknowledge Ulfric as High King, they just want to hold a vote for Elisif.

As an Argonian, I am not a fan of either what the Empire has become or the Stormcloaks. And I stayed out of the Civil War as long as I possibly could. The thing that finally got me to pick a side--the Imperial's side--is that the Thalmor were covertly working to drag the war on and on, and at the end of the day they are the worst of the three. By staying out of the war, I was actually helping them. So, from there on I had to do what I thought brought the best end to the war to take on the Thalmor, and that is the Imperial side, although that admission comes somewhat begrudgingly.

While perhaps one could argue that the Empire capitulated to Thalmor demands, the Stormcloaks aren't doing anyone favors. Good ol' egotistical, self-righteous [censored] Ulfric makes his claim to the throne at literally the WORST possible time to do so, and murders Torygg. Torygg actually looked up to Ulfric, and was willing to listen to him, but he was figuratively and literally shouted down. It isn't about unity or standing up against the enemy for Ulfric. It is about self-serving aggrandizement. His lack of critical thinking has led to near-irredeemable severing of ties with anyone who could possibly help him fight off the Aldmeri Dominion, but no, he has to get on a high horse about how tough he is. He uses nationalistic pride as a cover for his egotism. That doesn't mean I don't think he cares about Skyrim and his fellow Nords, because he certainly does. But unfortunately his pride also gets in the way A LOT.

Meanwhile, my marshbrothers and marshsisters are left to toil and slave out on the Windhelm docks, their pleas and struggles unheard. They aren't even allowed in the city. And while there are many Dunmer in general that I, as an Argonian, am not fond of due to longstanding tensions as a result of centuries of enslavement, there are many who are good people and in a similar situation to my fellow Saxhleel. And the same goes for a lot of the Stormcloaks. However, they have gotten too wrapped up in Ulfric's words and charisma. Regardless of my religious beliefs, I believe everyone has a right to their own religion, so I understand the anger and resentment towards the Empire when it comes to the banning of Talos worship. But this isn't the way to reversing that, or to beating back the Thalmor. Whatever the differences, we have a common enemy. But we can't fight against it if we have self-centered blowhards like Ulfric to lead the charge after dividing people. And unfortunately, the Empire--albeit a weak, pathetic shell of its former self--is needed for it.

The Civil War is tricky. I've never taken a side in it yet because of that. On the one hand, I see problems with the Stormcloaks. The Dunmer don't look like they have a fun time in Windhelm, and there are accusations of brutality against Ulfric in the aftermath of the revolution in Markarth. Then again, the Bretons in that area were using the fact that the bulk of the Imperial Army and Nord troops were tied up fighting the Thalmor; their revolution was taking advantage of the existence of the Thalmor, who are the closest thing to Nazis you'll find in TES. That implies disloyalty and a willingness to do literally anything. The Argonians are underpaid and the Khajit are not even allowed in walled cities.


Then again, some excuse has to be made for Nord reactions; in the aftermath of the volcanic eruption, the High King (or was it Ulffric's father?) opened Skyrim to the Dunmer refugees...but the numbers were a lot higher than expected. They feel culturally overwhelmed by massive demographic change; this always leads to cultural friction.


And the Empire is mostly no better. Yes, they fought the Thalmor and still keep an eye on them, and the rebellion hampers that - but what do they expect? They're attempting to suppress worship of somebody who is a god to Nords and who was a god to the Empire as a whole. Did they really expect everybody to simply believe what they were told to believe?


The ideal solution would be for the Empire to only nominally bar Talos-worship but to never enforce it, and end the civil war. Forestalling war with the Dominion by attempting to ban Talos-worship just got them civil war. You can't expect the people to adjust their religious beliefs to suit the Empire's grand strategy.

As I understand it, this is basically what the Empire did at first. Alvor in Riverwood says that nearly everyone used to have their own shrine to Talos and as long as you didn't stand in the streets yelling about it (and there are exceptions to that as well judging by Heimskr), the Empire would leave you well enough alone. It wasn't until Ulfric killed Torygg that the Thalmor and by extension, the Empire, started to really crack down on Talos worship.

Never Imperials. They were going to execute me for a crime I did not commit. There's plenty the Stormcloaks do wrong, but the Imperials crossed me first.

Actually, wasn't the player character caught in some pass over the mountains that was off-limits?

No, the Thalmor got involved earlier. During the War, Bretons in the Reach took Markarth, killed its jarl, and declared independence. Ulfric agreed to retake the Reach, and in exchange the Empire agreed to permit Talos-worship. The Nords retook the Reach, but the Dominion complained about the resulting Talos-worship and sent Thalmor agents, and the Empire cracked down on the worship of Talos.

Mmmm....not quite. The game says you were caught up accidentally in an ambush just past Darkwater Crossing, that the imperials staged to capture Ulfric.


Its misleading that the opening cart scene suggests you are coming from the now closed pass leading out of Skyrim.

The actual general who became the emperor? Hello?