Title is self-explanatory.

For the purposes of this debate, we'll be leaving out Mister House and the Legion endings, which have been discussed to death in other threads.

I further think we'll add these parameters.

* Assume a High Good Karma Courier in both cases.

* Assume the Courier did a near "perfect" ending for his factions.

* Assume the Courier did as many Pro-Humanitarian decisions as possible. So, Yes Man Courier probably helped the NCR tremendously before deciding they were not right for the Mojave.

* Assume Yes Man is actually just what he appears to be, a reprogrammed servile robot whose new assertiveness will just make it more loyal.

* Assume the Legion is still in existence on the other side of the Mojave after the Legate's retreat and Caesar's death.

Feel free to also add your own suggestion.

Neither, Legion or House is best for the Mojave.
NCR are locusts and will drain the lands resources and prosperity and then move on.
And Yes Man is anarchy, either it's no one ruling: Anarchy, or it's Yes Man ruling: And I don't trust robots that much, or it's the Courier ruling: He's a postman, he can't rule a country.

So either Legion or House would be best for the Mojave.

1. Well the day-to-day ruling is done by the Three Families and the Kings (to say as much as Freeside is ruled by anyone) with Westside apparently controlled by the FOA. So Mister House's structure is mostly intact (minus the Omertas in my playthrough) plus the police force (the Securitrons).

2. It's obviously not Yes Man because Yes Man explicitly is shutting down for an undetermined period for upgrades. Given Mister House took 193 years or so for getting all of his computers back online, the Courier could be in charge along with a huge horde of descendants before Yes Man comes back online.

3. Well the Courier had the best rebuttal to General Olliver regarding this. "I guarantee I put more thought into the safety and security of the Mojave people than the entirety of the NCR."



Well I'd love to see a Legion vs. House ending thread.

NCR would probably be SAFER for the people of the Mojave. More soldiers, more protection, etc. But more taxes, too. Like that guy in Primm says, when you ask if he has anything for sale.

YesMan doesent seem to care for the people of the Mojave at all,. I'm not sure if he can even think about the world outside his own shiny well lit little corner of it, safely tucked away in the strip.

Yes man gameplay wise is a bail out ending, IE it's a last resort if you somehow piss off everyone else. Lore wise. It makes sense he's nieve/apathetic. He was never designed to be a caregiver, he was designed and programed for one mans greed. That's pretty much what the Yes-Man route is, the greed that the play thinks they personally can change the entire world. (Even though Yes-man strongly hints at a potential forced take over in his dialogue at the end)

'
Rose of Sharon Cassidy is just a caravan trader and not a soldier but from her limited (but well-travelled) civilian perspective, it seems that the issue is primarily one of a lack of the necessary resources to hold the Mojave. This might be rectified with trains, which NCR has, and a large scale amount of recruiting from the local populous but that will take time.

Really, NCR would have lost the war with Caesar if not for the Courier.

(NCR or Yes Man ending)



Well Yes Man is, prior to installing whatever hardware Mister House had leftover to make himself more assertive (possibly containing everything from an AI backup of Mister House's brain to just something that would make him loyal to the Courier and the Courier alone), not actually sentient. He's basically just a piece of interactive software that mimics human behavior extremely well.

No real "self-determination" of its own, which I guess is the mark of true sentience for me. It's just programmed to serve you and any other human it meets extraordinarily well. I'm actually inclined to think Yes Man's upgrade is probably something that intends to use to serve YOU better because, bluntly, if General Olliver had told Yes Man to back down then the war would have been won there.

It's only ignorance that prevented the Courier from not shooting himself in the foot.



Well, Yes Man gives you control over New Vegas while he's downloading and it took Mister House 197 years to get his software right. It's not necessarilly going to happen in the Courier's lifetime. Certainly, we also see in the epilogue that there's no, "Yes Man eventually returned and became the Overlord." Instead, my ending explicitly says New Vegas never became part of NCR or the Legion and lived freely.

So, there's definitely that.

Actually, it never stated he doesn't take over either. It's a pretty ominous ending.

Some well put replies there, Charlemagne19 , it's clear you've put alot of thought into this situation.


From all this debate, I'm getting more and more wary of Yesman. I think I put a bullet through his screen simply to make sure there's nothing mor ominous he's got hidden in all that programming..

True, but fans have a tendency to beat certain theories into the ground. "Evil Yes Man" certainly might pop up but it's just as likely that it's not something that's going to happen either.

(I'm sure you'd like it anyway since the most likely "Evil Yes Man" ending would be Mister House having failsafes)

But I'm inclined again to think Obsidian won't deny players their kingdom.

Here's my thoughts on the merits versus downsides of the two.

Pro-NCR

+ NCR is an established liberal democracy. Mojave citizens will be given franchise when taken over by NCR.

+ NCR has a standing military that, while overwhelmed in the Mojave, is basically the only organized military left West of the Colorado.

+ It has a thriving economy including beef and caravan trade.

+ NCR has programs for the development of infrastructure and agriculture.

+ NCR seems to support social programs for the poor and relief efforts.

+ Caesar's Legion is a direct threat to the Mojave and one which will require substantive efforts to defeat them. This is still the case even the death of Caesar and Legate Lanius (if so inclined by the PC).

Anti-NCR

+ The NCR military is a joke. 3 weeks of training for recruits and effectively the NCR Rangers being badass by on the job training and being a mixture of tough-ass [censored] from the beginning. It's apparently composed of extremely talented veterans with a lot of skill and raw recruits with almost nothing in-between. Without the Courier, NCR gets DECIMATED militarilly by Caesar's Legion.

This doesn't bode well for NCR being able to fulfill its military obligations. If they can't fight the Fiends then how are they going to fight the Legion?

+ NCR doesn't have the necessary manpower to handle garrisoning the entire Mojave Desert, especially not without local support and there seems to be very little of that unless the PCs provide it with the Great Khans and the Enclave and the BOS.

+ Travel times are a [censored] for NCR with no railroad systems in place and no support structure. It's failure with the Powder Gangers also indicates the bureaucracy may not be able to do any of the building that they promised they could do.

+ NCR is going to be suffering a major famine in a decade if the research into plants and agriculture doens't plan out as well as the sharecropping.

+ NCR apparently has more power needs than it does power given it needs Helios One and Hoover Dam.

+ NCR's military is HORRIBLE at peace-keeping if its response is summary execution for any and all crimes.

+ If NCR conquers the Mojave, it's moved its borders directly to Caesar's and will be immediately in a state of war with its border far from its center of power.

+ NCR doesn't protect its caravan structures, instead having privatized concerns handle their security. This means their economic strength can probably be dealt with directly as opposed to through government intermediaries.

Pro-Independence

+ The government of New Vegas may be determined by the player.

+ The several hundred Securitrons under the control of Yes Man will provide a military to the Mojave which will be capable of defending it against Caesar's Legion without the likelihood of an NCR withdrawal. Their "base of operations" will also be very close.

+ Encouraging the Khans to leave the Mojave instead of allying with NCR results in the joining of the GK with the FOA, resulting in Wyoming being essentially reclaimed from barbarism.

+ The resources of Hoover Dam and Helios One will be more than sufficient to supply their needs for the centuries to come power-wise, allowing the excess power to be sold to NCR at a cost that can be used to provide money for rebuilding Las Vegas' infrastructure "in-house."

+ The FOA support independence and can be encouraged to become "nation-builders" like they were back in NCR without all the current animosity towards them from the leadership.

+ The Gun Runners and Crimson Caravan show no hesitation in dealing with the independent Mojave if Van Buren is any indication, so trade will continue with or without NCR.

+ Mister House's tribal associates seem perfectly content to continue on underneath you and it is unlikely that there will be much instability with the upgraded Securitrons.

+ Provided you have no problem with eliminating the Van Graffs and have removed Archimedes I and II as options for the Brotherhood, their harassment of travellers regarding super tech won't be a problem since they're only interested in weapon technology.

Provided the Courier is a member of the BOS, they should have no issue with assisting the stabilizing of the region.

+ Representation in the government would be much more localized should the PCs choose to institute a democracy (which, admittedly may make things awkward with the BOS in the future - oh well)

Anti-Independent

+ A lack of reinforcing army should Caesar's Legion choose to attack again.

+ The potentiality for NCR reprisals.

The problem is, you keep saying 'The courier is leader' in Independence, and that's simply not true. The Courier is more Yes-Mans tool than you are when you work for House. I really don't know where people get this idiotic idea that because it says 'Independence' it means 'I get to take over as god-king'. :banghead:

It never once specifically states in any ending that The Courier rules over the wasteland. It even shows that The Courier still goes on as a wanderer :shrug:

I suppose that the Mojave is just one small place compared to the rest of the world. The Courier wouldnt really be that much of a big deal outside of Vegas, I guess..

You guys are really interesting to /listen/ to, I'm having a great time reading what you have to say. It';s cool you two can discuss this without resorting to petty insult throwing and such. ( Charlemagne19 and Col.Martyr)

Colonel Martyr, I suppose it's because...

1. The game says, "I can take over New Vegas?" as a question to Yes Man.

2. Yes Man has no self-will of its own.

3. Benny's plan was to rule Vegas and you're taking it over and Mister House's army.

So yes, the entire point is you becoming ruler of New Vegas.

Pretty sure it would be called the 'Take over' path, and not the 'Independent' path. Care to prove Yes-Man had no self will? I don't seem to recall him asking if he could upgrade himself.

NCR I would say. Though I admit they are too expansionist they provide good help to their citizens (maybe not to people who aren't their own though) and are democratic.

The Yes Man ending is not really anarchic because the Courier is in control of the securitron armies which makes it tyrannical. Now he may be good-natured but that doesn't change the fact that the people of New Vegas have little say over what they do.

Plus, if it did devolve into true anarchy it would svck, we have seen from history anarchy may work in small societies but on a larger scale won't and with all the tribes and communities that can clash you need some state to protect the citizens from each other.

I don't trust a robot that's always a image of smiley face and the other reason why I got shot in head in the first place. I rather stick with the other three choices (House, NCR, or the Legion).

Yeeeaaahh...that's overly optimistic. "More assertive" doesn't translate out to "serve YOU better" to me. Such a statement has no room for any such ambiguity, and even if it did, Yes-Man is anything BUT ambiguous; he says what he means and means what he says.


It's all semantics, neither name for that path is official. Agreed about Yes-Man, though. Even before he decides to upgrade himself to become "more assertive," he already has quite a few opinions.

It's "Independent" because YOU'RE independent, I believe. This is effectively the "Omnicidal Neutral" ending (see tvtropes.org for more details) ending where the Courier asserts his independence from Mister House, NCR, and Caesar's Legion. The Courier, of course, can rule any way he likes. If the PC has Bad Karma, he be a tyrannical god-king. If the PC has good karma then he can be a Elder Lyons-esque monarch or the founder of the United States of Mojave. A large part of the appeal of the Yes Man ending is that the kind of reforms or activities the Courier engages in are entirely left to the imagination of the PC.



Well, the introduction of Yes Man more or less establishes (admittedly by his word alone) that he has been programmed to be SUPER-NICE (almost his exact words) and that he cannot disobey any order that's given to him by anyone or not answer the questions of even people that he's sure his boss is the enemy of. Some people like the whole, "Yes Man is actually a Machiavellian schemer smarter than Mister House" but I tend to disagree. Yes Man was programmed by Emily, a Follower of the Apocalypse and we can chat her up to confirm that.

Yes Man can make suggestions and form opinions but he can't ACT on them. The "more assertive" action would thus have to be something Yes Man interpreted from one of his earlier orders.



It just means more assertive.

Given Yes Man doesn't leave the hotel room he was created in until Benny is either dead or overthrown, there's a large degree of variations for what exactly qualifies as more assertive. Likewise, his personality was programmed by a member of the FOA as opposed to the Society of Evil. It's quite likely Yes Man's personality is actually legitimate.

Likewise, Yes Man hands the Courier control over the Strip as he goes down. Were Yes Man actually intending some sort of robotic betrayal then he wouldn't need to do anything more than inform General Oliver of the same thing that happened with Benny.



Yes, they're actually pieces of advice with the exception of the Great Khans (they're DIRTY!). The Brotherhood of Steel would want to kill Yes Man and cannibalism is bad.

I.e. the sort of opinions you'd expect an FOA programmed robot to have.

In any case, I actually tend to believe it's likely Yes Man will be down for decades as opposed to hours. Yes Man isn't in control at the end of the game but the Courier since the robot entrusts Vegas to you. For the sake of this discussion, I tend to interpret the game as basically saying you have a free reign without having to work throough Yes Man as an intermediary anymore.

(A more assertive Yes Man will probably just appear as an NPC in future supplements - allowing him to do stuff without obeying the PCs' every whim)

EDIT:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8k9OYIfG8C4

Some of the dialogue here is enlightening.

It means he's going to stop being a "yes man." It means he can start saying "no." It means that he could very well start acting on his own. And there's not a damn thing the Courier or anyone can do about it when that happens, because he has access to all of House's systems, controls all of the Securitrons, and can't even be killed.


Exactly, he's handing control over to you while he's down. Installing the updates. Now that all threats have been dealt with, it's as good a time as any to upgrade himself, and both he (and presumably you) can afford to take a little break from it. No one here is saying that he's evil; but what he is is being less predictable. Possibly less controllable.

Second of all, I'm not saying that Yes-Man is plotting some sort of betrayal, but whether or not he is is irrelevant to his behavior toward Oliver. If he could, there's no reason to betray the Courier to the general at that point, nor is there any reason to side with the NCR.


A Follower? You mean those people who have, several times in the past, assisted the Great Khans, teaching them about the Mongols and how to brew drugs for medicine? Those same people who will happily accept a former semi-member (Jerry the Punk) into their fold? Those same people who hook up with them again to help them take Wyoming? Yeeaahhh, I'm not exactly seeing a whole lot of hostility between the Khans and Followers. Maybe Emily has some issues with them, but none of the dialogue with her hints at that.

And even if his personality and opinions are reflective of her...so what? We've seen several times in the series that AIs can think and learn on their own and even develop their own personalities. ZAX 1.2, Eden, Skynet. Just what exactly is there to suggest that Yes-Man magically cannot?


He could be down for anywhere between hours and decades...but there's no proof of it either way. And you can damn well bet that when he wakes up, things are going to be different in Vegas.


Indeed it is. I'm picturing his smile cracking at 5:50 as he struggles to find something, ANYTHING, positive or encouraging to say about that "development."

Yes, the Courier could just destroy Mister House's systems. It's not like the Courier doesn't have access to the Lucky 38. Likewise, there's no sign that being more assertive means he won't be loyal to the Courier anymore.



True, I wonder if it was initially intended that Yes Man would be down for a "play after the ending" (like the NCR ending) and that it was actually just a way to justify Yes Man not obeying your commands to "send Securitrons to conquer X place or what not."

Still, we don't have enough information to say that Yes Man won't be loyal to the Courier or not. I suppose it's a question of whether or not the PC wants a totally obedient slave or not. I wish Obsidian had phrased the ending a bit less ambiguously, however.

I would have preferred something where the PC could choose whether or not to let Yes Man become more assertive and the ending would reflect that.



Maybe, maybe not. The ending was said to be one where the Courier was going to be the one shaping the face of Vegas and that's all the path built to - I'm inclined to think that it is honestly where it's meant to go.

Until the developers say otherwise, I guess I'll just keep assuming that.

I too used to be a Yes Man Ending player but some new information has changed my mind

1) None of the Yes Man endings give any hint at all that the Courier is involved in anyway with the governing of NV stating only that the Courier was responsible for independence (see http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fallout:_New_Vegas_endings)
2) Yes Man states that he will undergo an upgrade to become more assertive. While this could mean anything, I feel that given the context of a robot who has zero assertiveness even the slightest change in his personality would give it the potential to say, "No," which, in a robot that can control all of the securitrons in NV (the same securitrons that are propping up NV's independence in the first place) does not bode well
3) the Yes Man page (see http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Yes_Man) hints that an ending was cut that specifically allowed the Courier to be lord and master, for better or worse Your Courier May Vary, over NV but instead we are left with the ambiguousness that is Yes Man disappearing for an undetermined time to receive an undertermined upgrade to its personality. This information is pending a citation however

Regardless, the endings still never imply in the even the slightest way that the Courier is involved with NV or the politics of independence (see 1) but the game does imply that Yes Man will no longer be the bowing and scraping being it was when we first met, but will still have control over the securitrons when it awakes (however long, or short, that may be)

As a roleplayer with the future well being of the Mojave at stake I feel that Yes Man leaves too many questions unanswered and wields too much power over NV (namely, the securitron army until a regular army could be organized, and perhaps even then) to be the wisest, most prudent choice

So back to the thinking chair to really puzzle out in whose hands the Mojave is best left. All I know is definetly not House. Legion or NCR? Legion or NCR? Legion or...

Yes, but the ending theme is also about independence and freedom from NCR.



Given that the entirety of the ending is changed by this, removing the POINT of Yes Man being a force for the independence of Vegas and instead becoming another tyrant like Mister House, I think is basically just kicking the character's ending out from under them.



The notes section is just speculation. I've had a lot of bad experiences with the wiki in the past including statements which say, "Kimball and Oliver were disgraced upon returning to NCR" and "Hanlon became a Senator against NCR expansion if he doesn't commit suicide."

This was likely included to save the pain of creating a "canon" backstory for the Courier in the event of an independent Vegas becoming the canon ending, as well as a way of avoiding the complicated situations that could occur from putting the Courier in total control of Vegas in the post-ending gameplay that was scrapped later in development.

Really, it'll be up to the Developers to clarify this but I think the real question is going to be whether they would turn on a substantial portion of their gamers like that.



A benevolent Yes Man assisting a democratic Vegas would be my ideal outcome, but again, I suppose this is an issue of interpretation. A Bad Karma Courier essentially has unimaginable power over the region.

indeed, from everyone.



I don't think so. All of the endings have a caveat. The NCR ending leaves the Mojave in the power of a mostly corrupt and bungling state. House's ending has NV essentially owned by one man. The Legion ending, is well, the Legion ending. The Yes Man ending too would include the caveat that although the player freed NV from everyone they gained the "Freedom to starve" to quote a famous author and quite possibly left the entirety of its defense in the hands of one robot with ambiguous leanings and capabilities. As a side note, I feel you made a gross overassumption in your initial post that Yes Man's assertiveness would make it more loyal. It seems actually quite contrary to what the word, and state of being, assertive means



Which is why I included the fact that it was pending citation, but throwing it out still changes my beliefs not a bit as I feel there is sufficient evidence elsewhere. Also, if you check the link for all the ending slides you will see that on Slide 27, Option 4 Hanlon is elected Senator of Redding and in Slide 27, Option 3 Oliver and Kimball are denounced by opportunistic senators



Shrug, I agree that until Mister Sawyer or perhaps others come here and correct us about the characters' intent and so then we're just speculating. But I feel it is important to note that there is no monopoly on speculation and all of our opinions on the matter are subject to our own individual interpretations



Yes, ideally, but I guess that's always been the rub eh? An absolute ruler wouldn't be bad if they were absolutely good! Regardless, we're just flinging interpretations at each other now. I feel Yes Man cannot be trusted and because of this feel that it is not in the best interests of the Mojave to hang NV's independence on it

It's a counterpoint based on the fact that Yes Man is currently a slave to the Courier. It's lack of assertiveness oddly makes it LESS trustworthy in the long run as Yes Man betrayed Benny extremely easily. There's just as many theories to "assertive=robot overlord" that "Yes man betrayed benny to you because Benny was an abusive psychopath."

An assertive Yes Man would just as easily be something MORE trustworthy than the being beforehand.

It was just meant to be highlighted.



Thanks, I stand corrected.



True, an excellent point about caveats as well.



True, still I'm inclined to go with Yes Man and a Good Karma Courier over NCR irregardless.

i think an interesting philosophical question concerning Yes Man is how independent is New Vegas? I can only see two possibilities

1) New Vegas became a state independent of the NCR and Legion etc but still in control of the various factions and the Mojave around it
2) New Vegas is simply a collection of independent factions free to act on their own ie Westside, Freeside, Goodsprings, Primm and so on

if 1 then would we be any different than the NCR or Legion by trying to impose government or annexation on those factions?
if 2 what role do the Protectrons serve? Is it a common army for all of the Mojave to keep outsiders at bay? Would they interfere with in-faction fighting or if a faction tried to make a power-play? Would independence for all the factions in and of themselves truly be better for the Mojave?

Well, we know that Goodsprings become dependent on New Vegas' tourism trade (presumably from NCR). Likewise, at least in my ending, Novac remains independent thanks to the heroic defense of its inhabitants against Caesar's Legion as well as the assistance of the Bright Brotherhood. The Boomers remain fortified, but protected, so they don't become a part of NCR either or any other places.

I'm inclined to think that New Vegas will probably have the beginnings of a new state WITHIN the Mojave Desert. Like Vault City was ATTEMPTING to become by the annexation of Redding. It could well become a rival state to NCR depending on the actions of the Courier and the inclinations of future rulers of the region.

1:] I don't think at the START of things.

2:] The real issue is whether or not the inhabitants want to be PART of NCR as opposed to independent. One of the staggering things obvious in my playthrough is that NCR has absolutely no care whatsoever what the people of the Mojave think about them as they take over. Primm only becomes part of NCR if you, the Courier, install military protection to the place.

Independence can do better for a nation in the long run. For example, the United States certainly wasn't better off as part of the British Empire (nor were some of Britain's many colonies) while the lasting appeal of Rome has always been that they created a vast civilization out of what was essentially an uncivilized tribal culture in Europe.

The appeal of the Yes Man ending, I think is that it allows the people of the Mojave to not only have self-determination but it probably would allow them to benefit themselves in a direct manner. Theoretically, in a future time period, they and NCR might join together. However, by that time, the Mojave might be a much better economic or military position to assist NCR.

(Of course, given California and Nevada are larger than many European nations - its possible making the Mojave into a strong state could make annexation and merging more or less impossible)