All of the negativity and bickering aside, what ideas do you guys have that would of made the attribute system more improved instead of Bethesda's method? Edit: (believe me i wish they kept it too)

Honestly, they didn't remove it because it needed improvement, they removed it because it wasn't noob friendly.

Tis a 40 year old system my friend. They've been working with it since 1994, I dont think they removed it because it wasn't noob friendly. I believe they removed it because they've been working with it for 17 years and they got sick of it.

Returning to Daggerfall's ability to distribute points as the player sees fit would have been better. The problem they seemed to try to address was Skill/Attribute redundancy, which doesn't exist when the two aren't progressively dependent on each other.

I liked the large number of options that attribute enhancement gave to allow me to customize my character.

I feel that the attribute system worked really well, but instead of only leveling 3 each time maybe give us like 50 points at the beggining and raise attributes by 1 point up to 10 then it requires 2 at 20 it requires 3 so on and so fourth, and each time you lvl you get 10 points then when your lvl 10 you get 25 points ect. So on an so fourth. But honestly I liked them for RP reasons.

How would you have improved*

Yep, because the attributes in Oblivion were so hard to understand.

Willpower vs. Intelligence

Luck vs... Anything

Personality?

There's a reason why it's been around for so long, and it wasn't because it was broken. And yes, they did remove it because it wasn't noob friendly, they want people to be able to pick up and go, no thinking required.

Attributes are selected at the beginning of the game ala Fallout. There is no level scaling. There, its fixed. Although this still wouldnt cut it, because Beth got rid of attributes because they only wanted you to make one choice at character creation, and thats race.

Oh wow, an error in my grammar. Get over it.

I'd have made the hit-point bonus from endurance retroactive. There was one or two mods that did this but they didn't work perfectly. I think the game is better off without attributes though. I turned into a real power gamer because of them (trying to get the +5 bonuses each level) and it completely ruined the experience for me.

They are for people used to playing pick up and go games. Guess you've never tried introducing very people to games that aren't just point and click. And with the way things are going you'll never have the chance, games are all moving in that direction.

So, Bethesda is focusing very little in micro-management and more in the game itself. I can't see how this is bad to the game.

Im sorry but every video game is point and click. You just press buttons and watch things happen.

I would have had them back in a form similar to Arena and Daggerfall's where, with each level, you are awarded some attribute points to distribute however you see fit. I would get rid of the randomness, though, so you would, say, get 6 attribute points each time you level up rather than a randomly-chosen 4, 5, or 6 as in Daggerfall or Arena's 3-6.

Oblivion's attribute system lacked complexity. Adding layers of complexity would have fixed attributes, but they could also do the same by making all of the same variables manipulated entirely by skill level and perks (they are testing this, I think).

I would have it like Fallout, where you choose the distribution of attributes at the start of the game. That way it makes balancing skills with attributes a lot easier. Attributes would need actual depth too. Meaning they would have to affect skills and actions in a variety of ways. Strength could do encumbrance, small health bonus, small fatigue bonus, increase chance of staggering opponents, reduce opponent's block effectiveness, increase range of projectile weapons, etc... Stuff like that.

EDIT: I forgot that TES is being made using a "develop as you go" system. Picking values that will remain static for the entirety of the game is kind of against that philosophy. Although, I still think it is better than choosing attribute bonuses as you progress.

Really? So Baldur's Gate and Mario Bros are just as complex? I would've never guessed. :rolleyes:

When did I say that? Edit: Also I don't really care what your opinion is on whether the game is dumbed down or streamlined or if it is easier for noobs to play..I want your ideas on how they could have improved the attribute system. Either contribute or leave please.

The removal of redundant skills is understandable to me, but removing skills AND removing the related features doesn't make much sense to my mind. I'm thinking chiefly of Speed being removed...

If it had been up to me, I'd have condensed Strength and Endurance into Health, Wisdom and Intelligence into your Magicka, and Agility and Speed into Stamina.

To my knowledge they did 2/3 of that, but have locked character running speed and jump height. That's such a simple thing that they could've kept, and doing so really would have negated most of the complaints out there.

That's what I'd've done differently.

well... the more stamina your character acquires, the longer it can sprint. That is sort of like increasing speed.

By removing it.

Distribute attributes at start of game
Cost depends on race so it will be cheaper for an orc to start with high strength than a Bosmer
Keep connection between skills increase and attribute increase but set limit on how much attribute can be increased to based on a multiple of what it started at (eg if STR starts at 30 it can be increased to 60, if it starts at 50 it can increase to 100)
Make skills affect multiple attributes like GCD did
Increase number of skills but through limited access to training and slower increase rates especially for minor/misc skills make the spectre of characters with maxed out skills and attributes is kept at bay
Make sure every archetype has a way to increase every attribute (although it will obviously be easier and quicker for a mage to increase INT than a warrior [again see GCD for an example of this done well])

But most importantly make sure every attribute is important

Oh, and scrap luck

Go back to Arena style...When you level up you get X amount of Points to spend on attributes...I hated having to level minor, unused skills so I could get a 5, 5, 1. It was far too tedious.

Not my fault you are making arguments you can't back up. I was contributing, just not in backing you up.