Something to ponder is that the whole Legion is really just nothing more than a dictatorship built around the "cult of personality" of some meglomaniac. The only life that has any value in the legion is Caesar's the rest are a resource to be spent as he sees fit. Much like Stalin in WW2 the legion will send its poorley trained poorley equiped men at NCR guns in waves content to either make the NCR run out of manpower or bullets and Caesar is acceptable with either outcome. Sure that sounds all reasonable, sounds like the thing to do and makes sense right up until you are the one sent into combat with 5 bullets for the gun that your buddy is carrying. You know the only way you are going to get a gun is pry one from your buddy's hands or one lying on the ground, the only choice you have is a NCR bullet or a Legion one, not really a choice at all. In the Legion life is cheap, empathy is scorned, compassion is non existent, reducing man to an animal that instead of being used as food like beef cattle is, instead used as cannon fodder to satisfy the overreaching fanatacism and delusions of grandeur of an out of touch psychopath.

I am currently in play number 5 and i think i am going to side with Mr. House but i am going to do it because it is the best thing for the NCR. See the NCr can not hold all it has and the Mohave as well, but it can not allow Caesar to gain a foot hold across the river either. The legion will not stop until the maniac that is Caesar is either dead or has some other more powerful emnemy to contend with. That is where House comes in. Caesar might be able to intimidate the people and politicians of the NCR but Mr. House is another matter entirely. Securitrons have NO FEAR, will not be intimidated, and as machines will subject Caesars legion to something they have never faced before, an emotionless adversary that can not be manipulated based upon the human frailties of pleasure, comfort, or power. An adversary that will not stop, as robots under the control of a leader safely tucked in his tower behind a wall of steel that when upgraded is more powerful than the entirety of the legion. An adversary that by my (the courier) design will be a steel wall between the madness of the legion and the hope of the NCR.

The NCR is NOT perfect, not by a long shot, but they get my nod because while life may not have the most value in the NCR it still has more value than any but Caesar's in the legion. The NCR brings its own brand of corruption and i find it quite hilarious that apparently people have not changed. People in the Mohave will complain about the dangerous roads, the corruption, but very much like the idiots of today will raise hell if on dialing 911 the phone is not answered immediately, will complain about the taxes necessary to pay the operator or patrols to ensure safe travel. I find the cynicism of the writers to be a comfort in that even in the future folks still will complain about taxes even if the alternative is chaos. People still seem to expect something for nothing having forgotten apparently that freedom is NOT free, someone pays, you pay in caps the soldier pays in blood. Ahh the idiocy of my fellow hairless monkies never ceases to amaze me, in game or real life hell it is some of the best comedy like the Tea Bagger Idiots can not be written only comming about from people loose with out advlt supervision lolz.

Asai

Err, what? The Legion soldiers are actually well trained, way better trained the NCR in that matter as well. Many are trained from birth. Yeah, they like coming at you with machetes, but a Legionary is trained to fight in any situation. If anything, they are equipped just as badly as the NCR grunts.( I think)

Eh, I wouldn't say as badly... Better equipped than NCR in terms of versatility.

True enough the Legion is well trained in archaic tactics using outdated weapons, no matter how well you are trained a machete unless close to the adversary is useless and the weilder will always loose to a rifle. It is not a skill thing but a practical thing as i can attack you long before you get within the effective range of your weapon. You can be the fastest human alive but you can not out run a bullet. A gun is the great equalizer, it can take an 80 year old woman and make her an effective killer. Sure you could make the point that a machete is more reliable that a fire arm but you have to close to use it and that is where the weakness of the Legion is concerning the fight on the dam. It is like WW1 Caesar will pour out of thier trenches to perform a bayonet charge across the top of the dam right into a wall of lead, it is why they lost the first battle of the Hoover, overwhelming firepower, plus some mis direction, brilliant command and a full understanding of your adversary. It is this understanding of legion tactics that should allow any competent commander the ability to use those tactics against them, this is what won the day for the NCR. Caesar's army is a one trick pony, true enough they might do that one trick VERY well but having seen the trick, there is no secret how Caesar will fight, and any skilled commander armed with this knowledge should prevail. The NCR is not some rag tag dis organized collection of dirt farmers or loose confederation of warring tribals waving sicles and lawn mower blades but a moderately trained armed force who hold key defensive positions. Command is all about recognizing your weaknesses and minimizing thier exposure while recognizing your adversaries weakness and forcing them to expose thiers. A melee force like the Legion which will have to attack across a narrow point into over lapping fields of fire will be butchered getting what they deserve. The only good legionaire is a dead one.

Asai

Always interesting to see the typical Pro-NCR argument rehashed repeatedly. "Caesar's Legion uses melee weapons. Bullet>melee. Legion is teh svckzorz".

Sure, I'll grant you that. From your view point the Legion fails in just about every possible way. Yet the NCR is locked in a stalemate with these so called abject failures. Using fairly simple logic I'd have to deduce that the NCR, while marginally better then some ragtag tribal group, are insanely incompentent from it's lowest levels to the upper echelons. I mean, using the "bullet>melee" argument that's the only possible excuse, right?

Or, it could be both factions have their strengths and their weaknesses. The NCR has a huge amount young men and women willing to fight for what they believe to be a worthy cause, and have gained a considerable amount of territory because of that, while the Legion is run by a tactical/strategic genius who, as you say, uses archaic methods of warfare to effectively square off against a superior fighting force.

Sorry folks but ya' can't have it both ways. The Legion can't svck out loud when the NCR can't so much as prevent their incursion into the Mojave, without the NCR svcking equally hard.

But I m not pro ncr. Sarah Lyons is my hero.

I m pro hard ass bad guys to engage in fake combat with, and Ceaser s Legion besides on the dam and in Ceaser s tent does not provide hard ass in game combat. Im not fighting lore in the game.

I need people that return fire at least.

They are not Roman soilders. Look up Roman Legion on the net. Look for 3 mins and you ll see what was left out that would have made them hard. Roman soilders are rolling over in their graves right now. Blame it on the engine blame it on what ever you want, but cl is weak in game. Not because of the engine, because they have very little ranged attack and no defense from ranged attack.

What game are you playing? Every NCR soilder besides at Camp Forlorn Hope has a semi automatic rifle. Not 1 out of 4, but all of them. This is why if you put on a cl uniform so the NCR treats you like you are villified, they will actually take more than 12hp away before you kill 5 of them. They shoot back, because they all have guns. cl I see a group of 5 of them I lose 12 hit points if I m lucky.

Unless I want to stand there and let them hurt me.

Don't know, maybe the Boomers if I could swing it :shrug:.

No Gabriel it's not 'lore' at all.. It's a game that was never released so until it's an actual part of FO history/story it's nothing but conceptual design... :facepalm:

The ncr 'svcking' has very little to do with the legion. If you pay a little more attention in-game you'll realise that house is bleeding them dry on the strip, and the fiends are causing them no end of trouble in outer vegas..
The legion are actually quite a lot weaker then the fiends in new vegas.. Sad but true.

Er, okay? I suppose that's one opinion. Personally I see the fact that the NCR can barely manage to withstand attacks from drug-addled raiders more evidence of their general weakness. Oh and there's no reason to get snarky, I play plenty of attention to the goings on in game, I simply haven't completed every main questline yet. I guess we could agree to disagree as I'm not trying to degenerate this topic into a mud-slinging match (it seems to be heading in that direction anyway).

Weaker than The Fiends? In what sense?

meh in game tho the fiends are better equiped

First off i am not trying to get personal on anyone merely make my points concerning the reasons why when push comes to shove the Legion going against the NCR in a pitched battle like the dam will be (merely because of the terrain) a death trap for the legion. If the legion held the dam it would be a different story for the NCR, it is not really about which faction is actually stronger but which faction in the positions they occupy that if i was a beting man would be the faction i would bet the farm on.

But as far as the melee vs ranged argument sure it is possible for the Legion to overcome a more technical foe on open terrain where there fanatacism and dedication might rout the adversary by human wave tactics, but the cost to the Legion will be great and any victory by the Legion would have to be considered phyrric at best. How long has it taken the Legion to recover and regroup from the first battle of hoover dam? We are talking years here and it seems that the NCR is able to recover from situations alot faster and return stronger than the Legion can in the same time frame. We all know the Legion is comming, we all know they will cross the dam, we all know that with out MASSIVE assistance from the courier the legion or NCR will fail. That in itself means that both parties are equally matched just in different ways, with the NCR holding the advantage of the terrain and as i said any victory by either side will be Phyrric at best. The NCR has had plenty of time after defeating the Legion at the dam by the proximity of Vegas, and the debauchery it promotes to be sufficiently bled of caps but if the Legion thinks they will escape the same fate i beg to differ, House's securitrons even if not upgraded will bleed the legion as well.

As i am RPing this play i will boot both the legion and the NCR from the Mohave instead choosing to save the NCR from themselves and slaughtering as many legion scum as i the game will allow, (i have special bullets i made just for legion scum JHP designed to kill the lucky and maim the unlucky as a reminder all legion scum that the Mohave is an inhospitable place for thier ilk). By placing MR. Houses robot wall between the Legion and the NCR i will save the NCR from themselves, they will not recognize the favor i will do for them and instead choose to be angry for awhile, but when the Legion is kept at bay letting House bear the legion brunt instead of NCR soldiers. I honestly think that MR. House who has home field advantage is by far the strongest of the 3 major factions and more than capable of dealing with either collection of rag tag football hooligans on a home team win bender.

Anyway i LOVE a good debate and love discussing the pros and cons of the game story i do apologize if i have offended anyone as that was not my intent just provoke a lively debate that was and still is my only goal. I sometimes forget that what sounds funny in my head as i type something may not translate well (sarcasm does not xfer well in text).

Asai

Yeah, another blatant contradiction between gameplay and story?
The sense in them being weaker is, the fiends are far better equipped and actually have a decent stronghold. The ending shows the Legion taking down the fiends though so we have to roll with that. If you used the pc to create a battle between the fiends and the legion though, I'm fairly certain who would win :S

It is lore, doesn't matter if it was released or not, the lore "is" there.
But it cannot be used for arguments of factual discussions because it was not released and therefor is not truly officially canonized yet.

That's actually true.

No Van Buran lore went with Van Buran cl. This is not Van Buran cl.

IMO That lore is not cl lore. nv cl lore is the only cl lore there is.

Have you tried this on PC? Even I think a mixed group of cl will beat fiends. 5 v 5

Though one time 4 fiends had cowboy repeaters and they were in line formation pluging me. If I didn t run behind a building and fix myself they would have killed me. lol

well the lore was enspired by van buren be it different or not

Exactly this. It's all well and good 'pretending' van buren 'lore' actually means something. It doesn't, it was never finished.
The ideas/stories you read about in the wiki about VB NEVER became an actual game. It's the same as saying all the cut content that has ever been conceptualised for a fallout game is 'lore'..
It isn't and until it's in an actual 'released game' I'm going to call BS everytime someone tries to use VB 'lore' to defend their baseless arguments.

but go look at Van Buran cl. It has stuff that would be dangerous.

nv cl does not. They are not the same cl

Kinda doubt it, the fiends are/were (haven't checked post patch) quite OP'd.. Outside of mcarran I'd quite often see a bunch of them spawn with laser rcw's and tear the ncr down. Probably not anymore since the service rifle got modified.

Legion with the exception of a 'few' packing 12.7mm gun and AMR's (on the dam) run around with sharpened lawn mover blades.. :facepalm:

Let's see, the Legion take out the Fiends, Powder Gangers and Kings (unfortunately) in the days and weeks following their take over in the Mojave, while the NCR, despite having much more power and numbers before the Second Battle of Hoover Dam, couldn't.

Gameplay doesn't really matter for [censored]. I took out about four NCR Veteran Rangers, who are supposed to be next to impossible to kill, during the last mission. One man takes out four or five Veteran Rangers.

God knows how many heavy armour wearing NCR soldiers I had to take down as well.