Right on brother!
I really like girls in :mohawk: mowhaks :mohawk:

Yup, lore>gameplay.
Always.
Gameplay is messed up if it's to be taken seriously.
We were downed by Benny after 2 bullets to the head and I apparently still have the scars there from the operation.
Wouldn't my entire body be covered in scars if gameplay>lore?
Or how about taking 20 Jet in a row?
Or how about beating a super mutant to death with 4 STR and some boxing tape?
Or how about the magical VATS?
Or how about the magical perks?
Or how about the magical increase in health we get each level?
Lore>Gameplay.
Always.

[edit]

Point is that gameplay can't always follow the lore in order to make it a joyful experience or because of engine/time/design limitations.
Legion is overall presented in lore as a brutal war machine that can easily stomp over just about anyone, even NCR.
Yet in the game due to the crap balance, messed up enemy AI and horrible game engine Legion hardly presents themselves well.
But the lore tells us of how it "really is", it tells us the facts.
Another example, Myron in Fallout 2 has an ending slider

1. I am aware, also aknowledged the leion did this despite being ridiculously weak in game. As for the ncr, its part of the storyline regarding being bled dry by the strip and not taking control like they should, so the bos can see this and lift the lockdown.

2. The courier can do just about anything, I cleared out every single CL across the river, including all the praetorians and Caesar himself without really breaking a sweat..

You really enjoy using the word 'lore' huh? shame Legion don't really have that much.

What they do have regarding the ending scene can't be argued with. Well, as long as canon shows them actually winning the second hoover dam battle, which I kinda doubt..

I don't understand why the NCR is losing the fight at all given that they have Vertibirds and could be dropping mini-nukes on Legion positions with them. I would join the Followers and help out Mr. House. Their goals are synchronous.

Perhaps because they are fighting such a dramtically inferior foe the developers decided to gimp the ncr's ability in the mojave a little. Doesn't make sense to me either.

O'rly?

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Legion
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar%27s_Legion_military_hierarchy
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Legion_currency
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Four_States_Commonwealth
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Burned_Man
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Praetorian_Guard
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Caesar
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Lanius
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/History_of_Caesar%27s_Legion

Legion has tightened up NCR's caravan routes.
Legion are better trained.
NCtRoopers are given quick training crap gear and sent off to the Mojave.
Legion has infiltrators gaining allies and sabotaging NCR operations.
NCR has "one" vertibird, nothing tells us they have more or if they have any mininukes at all (which as we can see in NV are very rare.).
That ranger dude who's messing with radio reports on purpose.
Legion ambushing NCcaRavans and NCRanger stations.
NCR can't handle their troops well.
Looking at Forlorn Hope I see a crapload of graves while at Nelson I can't find a single dead legionnaire. (Maybe one or two out in the mine field.)
NCR prioritizes the Dam more than anything else and in doing so are blind to Legion's true advances.
NCR morale is declining while Legion's are only growing stronger.
NCR is losing it's people's trust and patience and is wearing them very very thin.
NCR is focusing on factions that want them no harm instead of focusing on the real threat and trying to gain allies.

There are lots of reasons why NCR ain't strong or "as strong" as you want to believe them to be.

Yes, really..

1. Mostly taken from van buren. Not actually FO lore.
2. Military structure? Yeah, I guess thats lore.
3. A currency, awesome?
4. Again mostly taken from VB, not lore.
5. Some of that is a good source of lore granted. However most is taken from vb again...
6. Thats simply a description of a character?
7. Legions best source of lore.
8. You're really going to try and use this wiki entry? considering you yourself contradicted half the information here in another thread I think that shows it's usefullness. Perhaps when a solid story regarding Lanius emerges it'll make decent lore.
9. Simply a page that says pretty much the same as the others, its also mainly vb too.. So BS..

Exactly. Gameplay doesn't mean a thing.

I know that you absolutely hate the Legion. That's fine. I, unlike most pro-NCR, don't find it necessary to insult your choice and try to convince you otherwise. But, I think, according to lore, the Legion would win at Hoover Dam if the Courier hadn't been involved.

IN MY OPINION, the lore shows this. And as you clearly pointed out, lore is much more important than gameplay.

Yup, and all of these legion feats that you talk of are guerilla tactics. You know when a side using guerilla tactics? when they are facing a superior force and a head on confrontation would be suicide..

The problem as I see it is one of logistics. I'd accuse General Oliver of being a legion spy for his insane mismanagement of resources that ends putting nothing but some lightly armored doughboys in the way of the legion advance. Where were the Veteran Rangers and what were they doing that was higher priority than defending the border? Why don't any of the NCR patrols have anything heavier than a service rifle? Where are the missile launchers and LMGs and everything else you might put in a unit assigned to point defense?

Actually all I pointed out was the 'player' is designed to be able to do anything. The actual ingame representations of the factions (considering the amount of patches that have been released) pretty accurately depicts factions strengths/weaknesses.

Whatever, I've grown tired of discussing with you, you're so incredibly biased against anything that's Legion that it's pointless to even bring it up near your presence.
Always the same thing, you disagree with anything about the Legion then we Legion supporters correct you, then you say "Nu uh!" and the we go "Yu huh!" and then we repeat the cycle once more.
It's pointless and repetitive.
Until you decide to actually open up your mind about legion and stop being so biased I ain't interested in discussing things with you no more.

And all that, in the wiki, is canon lore unless the wiki entry says otherwise. Things such as Denver being City filled with feral dogs is not canon. Everything in that article about the Legion is canon.

Good thing the courier is involved. What's your point, given that?

Of course you aren't because I point out the obvious flaws in your logic. VB does not = lore. Which is were you Legion fans get most of your ridiculous ideas about them..

Edit: Aww you removed it..

There you go again, trying to convince people otherwise.

Nobody is saying Van Burren is lore. Those Wiki entries, unless stated otherwise, are canon lore.

I think perhaps you don't know what 'lore' or 'canon' mean?

Tell you what, you show me a store that sells van buren so I can actually play through this nonsense that spouted on those wiki pages? No you can't. It's basically cut content.. CUT content, little more than fanfic..

"There you go again, trying to convince people otherwise.

Nobody is saying Van Burren is lore. Those Wiki entries, unless stated otherwise, are canon lore."

You do realise that you just said VB isn't canon or lore, right? Perhaps you haven't realised that more than half of the information given in those wiki pages is taken from VB ideas.. You just defeated your own argument.. :facepalm:

The Wiki isn't operated by the people who own the rights to the franchise, Bethesda. Have fun with the other guys on my ignore list.

... alright? You're ignoring me because, what? I've a different opinion to you, or because I made a mistake?

I rarely see Legion supporters begin pointless arguments about how they are better than the NCR. NCR supporters do it the entire time, and it's very tiring.

I'm not an ncr supporter. I'm an anti-BS supporter.

It's amazing how when facts to prove you wrong are brought up you decide to dismiss it cause it shatters your idea of NCR (in this case).
You once said that we Legion supporters "bend" the facts or "non-lore" to get our will through when it is you that ignore and dismiss any facts to prove you wrong.

Anyway, I've contributed to this but I'll admit that this thread has derailed completely. Moderators, lock?

Meh, the Brotherhood are not that bad.

What facts? Rubbish dredged from VB? That does nothing because it's a 'non-game'...

Edit: You had our convo removed before because you lost the argument. Is your forum rep more important than the game?