I have provided logical reasoning to back up my assumptions.
You on the other hand have done nothing of the sort.
All you have done is assert the same silly line about falling in the sea over and over again, which does not even have anything to do with the discussion, as it is an in-game explanation and we are talking about the real reason why Winterhold is a tiny hamlet instead of a capital in reality, in the game.

Since at this point one has reverted to veiled ad-hominems and other kinds of one-liner malarky I shall no longer deign myself to replying to you anymore on this matter.

For me the lack of organic development does break my suspension of disbelief in at least three of the cities of Skyrim.

1. Falkreath is in a coniferous forest, but is not built using log construction as would be most obvious in that region, but Riften is.
2. Morthal, a city in marshland is built with stone; I don’t think I need to explain that one.
3. Winterhold even after having been devastated is so small that many of the hamlets in the game rival or exceed it in size, but we are explicitly told in game that it once rivaled Solitude.

None of these things are at all game breaking and may seem trivial and nit-picky on my part, but as a consequence I tend to ignore and avoid 1/3 of all the major hamlet/village capitals in the game which does bother me when I think about it.

The problem lies in the inefficient coding of the AI and engine, which pretty much runs the whole process for each and every actor in the cell, no matter how small or big their role. This is why we also can't have any epic battle in an ES game and why we're still saddled with small cells. Other games have proven what's possible with optimized engines, but unless Bethesda decides to finally scrap that relic for good, even future ES games will suffer from these limitations.

I couldn't care less about tacked on explanations and lore excuses why the settlements are that disappointing. This supposedly is a 2011 AAA game that wants to be GOTY, so it should better deliver.

The real reason is because it was meant to make the college stand out, and the rest you know.

Logical reasoning does not equal proof. I can't believe I'm actually reading this, do you know anything about debating?

You claim Winterhold is tiny because they ran out of time.

You give no proof and tell me to give proof when I never said that wasn't true, I don't know the reason and NEITHER DO YOU.

PROOF OR GET OUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His logical "assumption" is correct, we hear that the city fell into the ocean, and then?, we know the locals blame the college, and then? to both statements the answer is nothing, it's not taken further to any kind of conclusion which leads people to think the developers ran out of time, I'm also one of those people.

I think the cities are fine and I like them all. Most everything but a few little things is well done in this game. Bethesda just needs to tweak a few thing to make this game perfect It think

:D

His assumption is that they ran out of time, something he has no proof for and hasn't backed up. That's the point here.

Maybe they did, but I have no proof of this and neither does anyone else. Get proof of said claim, or don't make said claim.

You can't even call them cities.

It's a bunch of villages.

the cities are disappointing

I'm just as inclined to believe it was left as a loose end for DLC, which would be rather despicable but not unlikely.

i find them small but they are pretty and each has a nice feel to it

I think the towns look proportionally correct within the game world. What I don't like is the overall emptiness of the world in general. I wish there were more road travelers that you could follow and see what taverns they stay at and where they actually live when at home. I wish there were more interesting outposts to run across. I wish there were random campers at night that you could trade materials with. Maybe you just came from some Dwemer ruins and run across a camper who needs Dwemer pieces. Let's trade.

I know I said I wouldnt reply anymore, but, sigh, really?
Why?
Why must conjecture be founded by proof?

Fact: Winterhold is depressingly tiny, for what is supposed to be an independant hold with its own legal system and economy.
Fact: There is a reason for this.

That is the point at which conjecture to this reason comes in.
There is no proof required, because its not a statement of fact it is an expected likelyhood.
As conjecture goes, I hold that it is a more likely one than lazyness, bait-and-switch, and certainly more reasonable to assume than it is that the entire county of Winterhold was always meant to be just three houses. For the reason of abovementioned lemon.

Now.
You have provided no reasoning for dismissing this conjecture, in-game explanations are obviously there to account for out-of-game reality and screaming 'prove it' isnt really an argument at all.
In reality things are constrained from their planned grandeur by any number of factors, time and money being the most prevalent.

Could you please tell me what you have against this perfectly reasonable assumption, one that does not paint Bethesda out as some evil malcreants or lazy good-for-nothings, but shows a human side namely setting the bar as high as you can but not always reaching your goal?

Is it just to be argumentative or is it for some reason of not allowing any blasphemy agains the great Bethesda, who can do no wrong at all in anything and yea smite the unbelievers?

Mind you, if I was just a grade more pedantic I would print the dictionary definition of conjecture, proof, fact and debate.
Because I am not in that mood today, Ill leave it at above line.

This. This is why Skyrim's cities feel so unrealistic to me, there is not enough sleeze. No brothel's, no shady skooma dealers. Zelch. Sure, Riften has the Thieve's Guild, but that's just not the same as a cat house or a skooma den.

I agree with Merari on Winterhold, "The Great Collapse" just reeks of time constraints.

Holy crap, where do I begin? In no particular order:

"Depressingly tiny" is an opinion, not a fact. You told me to supply proof for saying you needed to provide proof. I'm thinking maybe English isn't your first language here or something of that nature.

You did not present it as conjecture, you presented it as fact. Facts require proof that you did not give, and is very necessary.

In summation:

1. Winterhold is small because they made it that way and added lore to say why. You seem to think it's tiny because they got lazy/ran out of time, that requires proof. As it stands the only proof as to WHY Winterhold is it's size, is because it was destroyed.

2. Blasphemy against Bethesda? What? Talk about an unfounded assumption.

I can't wrap my head around your points anymore.

Throwing in lore to make something easier on the developer is nothing new. There isn't any proof that that's why Winterhold is the way it is, but one can make an educated guess. Nobody is trying to prove anything to you, but you want them to. People don't need to back up their opinions with proof for your sake if they don't want to.

1. Duh. Anything I write is coloured by my emotional opinion, have you ever read anything I post? Meanwhile if you are clever enough to detect an emotional colouration, you are also clever enough to detect what underlying fact I am alluding to, namely, Winterhold has only 3 houses.
Is it your intention to just nitpick over inconsequential trivialities until I give up?

2. Please read my post before you say I think something like 'lazy'. I have basically just printed a post saying that I do not think that.
If you are going to reply to me, the least of courtesies is that you actually read what I write, not scan for a word you can jump on.

3. What on earth is your point for rejecting my perfectly reasonable conjecture? Is what I am asking. Are you the inquisition?
What is your counter proposition?

Have to agree with this. Although I would have preferred the massiveness of Daggerfall (thousands of cities), I'm actually a bit shocked at how well this scaling does in Skyrim. Very much because you can't really beeline anywhere. It's all plenty of walking, and as the devs stated, "makes it appear bigger than it really is". So for Skyrim, this really works out quite nicely. The fact that we don't travel at warp speed anymore (was nuts in Oblivion once you gained high levels), also helps.

Btw:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rodneyr/1084607839/in/set-72157601376876324 (size )
http://www.flickr.com/photos/rodneyr/1085460890/in/set-72157601376876324 (city walls)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/luftbalong/346619666/in/photostream/ (size again, a "town")

From modern times (in harsh environments easily qualifying for Skyrim):
http://www.flickr.com/photos/cornelluniversitylibrary/4558909414/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/worldwalker/262286984/ (inhabitants now makes you think what it was then)

So as much as I like big cities, the ones we got works out pretty well. I wouldn't expect something like http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/93/daggerfallmap1jg.jpg/, http://www.dfworkshop.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/wayrest_city.jpg, or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLhFa1QsFuA&t=1m50s

I have just been reading this thread on these past few pages. I have to agree with you Freaklore. Nobody has to prove an opinion. I think the cities was downsized by the time constraint on 11-11-11. I also think that this is why the game is more riddled with bugs because of that date. I also think that might be a part of the reason the magic system has been butchered.

On Winterhold I know a part of the city sunk in the ocean. Maybe because of time constraints maybe not. I just wish it was something more substantial than three buildings and the college. What makes me think that the cities are smaller because of time is that all of the cities are tiny.

1. You can't state facts with emotional opinion "Fact: Skyrim is a [censored] game" for example. It negates saying FACT altogether.

2. Then don't ask if I'm going to defend Bethesda against blasphemies, which you made up entirely.

3. Because you were not presenting it as conjecture, but as fact. Backed up by the fact that you stated it as such.

Are we done here? I'm tiring of reading big words that you're intentionally forcing into posts for some reason, not that I can't read them. It's just quite annoying to read them when you know there's no reason to. This isn't literature class.

And yes, I'm the Spanish Inquisition.



I stated he had no proof of what he was saying, to which he said he backed up what he was saying. Backing up what he says requires proof that you say he doesn't need to have.

Problem?

They should add more "out-of-towners" to the cities. Not everybody in a city has to have a house there. Could add some population to the towns, without sacrificing much believability.

By definition conjecture does not require proof, only sound reasoning and the premise of facts.

Oh yes we are done here, as once again I have gone completely over your head and Im so tired of trying to get you to understand what I actually am saying.
Because it really isnt hard, when youre not talking to a pitbull that attacks anything that reeks of going against Bethesda.

You dont want to understand what I am saying, you want to sling mud and discredit what you perceive as my opinion by saying damnfool things and resorting to personal attacks and taking things out of context.
If you do this deliberately or not is irrelevant, I am done.


Blast, I shouldve followed my own advice and quit replying to you when I said I would.

Im sure other people with less of this particular mindset will have understood what I am saying, and that is good enough.

I have to admit it breaks a little my immersion when you hear that this is not a real image of Skyrim, but only a small compressed version to engage in.

Well foreigners, as in non-Nord's aren't really allowed most places and the Khajiit hang around outside.

The Imperial City cells were mid-sized and packed with NPCs and I didn't notice too many bugs...

But really, if the NPCs actually have schedules and things to do, then they shouldn't be just standing around doing nothing anyway. Oblivion had NPCs always on the move. This game has some NPCs never moving from their original spots. Like that merc in Markarth who hangs out at the bridge all day and night talking about blood and silver every time I walk by....