Not convincing at all. There are probably more bandits, vampires, rogues mages ect. in existence than there are NPCs in town, counting guards. While most cities have very solid art design (Markath is beautiful), they are too small and simply aren't populated enough to feel real. I mean, the dinky little [censored]hole of Flotsam in Witcher 2 is bigger and has more NPCs than the supposed grand, massive capital of Solitude.

Oh, and about the hardware limitation excuse, Assassin's Creed can show dozens of NPCs at once on consoles no problem. They even react to most actions the player do, and far more realistically than Skyrim NPCs might I had (granted, the non plot important ones aren't persistent, but who cares since most Skyrim NPCs have no personality anyway?). So it's far more of an engine issue than a hardware limitation. I wager the problem will be lesser when (or if?) Bethesda finally abandons creaky old Gamebryo.

Skyrim cities are terribly small, winterhold is the biggest joke, even if half the city collapsed, Why are half the remaining houses burnt down too and why would the once former capital of skyrim have only 3 actual buildings left excluding the college?

Oblivions cities at least felt like small towns, Skyrim's cities all feel like villages and they really do feel and look that way.

In Daggerfall It may have svcked to walk from one end of the massive city to the other but thats because its realistic.

it may have svcked.... but that's because it's realistic

svcked.... realistic

Ignorance is bliss, just keep smiling :thumbsup:

You're right it is the engine but it's also two big things that we've come to expect from TES games: persistent NPCs and full inventory system for every NPC in the game. In order to match the huge feeling of games like AC or GTA we'd have to give some of that up. The limitations currently are due to the massive amount of persistent objects the engine has to keep track of. If you think people are complaining now just let Beth cut back on some of those things.

There are probably more bandits, vampires, rogues mages ect. in existence than there are NPCs in town, counting guards.

There are more enemies than there are peaceful NPCs. That's true. However, you are not supposed to be killing the townies, just the ones you listed. Well, you can kill the townies, but then there would be less people in the towns and no one to do business with. Or get quests from. Anyway, it's a game and it provides targets for you.

As for making cities more realistic, they simply need to be larger and have more people. Again procedural generation can help. Here's how:

1) Create the appropriate amount of specific NPCs. These will be important characters, quest givers, shop owners, trainers, faction members, etc. This will be no different from the previous three TES games.

2) Generate unnamed "filler" NPCs similar to the ones you see in games like Grand Theft Auto. Most will want to be left alone, and you will not be able to speak with them. Honestly, how many people can you just walk up to, as a total stranger, and just start a conversation with? Try it next time you're at the mall.

3) Leave lots of houses permanently locked, empty (to save development time), and requiring a key. Call them "filler" houses if you will, because they are where all the "filler" NPCs live at night.

4) In the chance occasion that a "filler" NPC does in fact respond to you, they will be assigned a name, occupation and a place of residence in the city. Then and only then, will you be able to enter their house - which will be decorated by procedural generation. Also, you may now pick the lock for that location.

5) Give the player a "black book" with a limited number of slots for the randomly generated NPCs. Once full, the player can erase some entries from the "black book" so new ones may be added. This will keep the game save from becoming too large.

i would love to see more people in the cities. like the assassin's creed series, open cities with people doing more stuff, going in and out. be able to run a store or open shops control the economy that way. that would be perfect. god i wish it was in the game.

Anyway, so here is my idea. I think you should have a wide variety of options to engage in entrepreneurship. And to help you do this there would be a Traders' Guild... This guild would be to Speechcraft what the Thieves guild it to Sneak. The guild would recruit shrewd negotiators that can keep a cool head at the bargaining table.

Here are a few things you could be able to do...

- Loan money to earn interest. For example, a weapon-smith might mention that his forge is old and in disrepair. If only he had $2,000 gold to fix it, he could craft better weapons and make more money. You would then have the option to loan the money to him, and even set the interest rate! Be careful though! You don't want to loan money to the local moon sugar junkie! Trust me, he'll ask you.

- Purchase a business. Anything is up for grabs, provided that the owner is willing to sell - inns, pubs, shops, farms, mills, stables, ships, and more! Of course there are always risks! Your shop could be robbed blind, your mill could go up in flames, your trade ship could sink... so don't forget to buy insurance!

- Buy and sell stock. Bigger business, like a shipping company, bank, school, or manufacturer could sell stock. You could buy and sell shares to earn money! You could even complete quests to increase the profitability of a business you invest in. For example, lets say you buy 500 shares of "Nordic Shipping & Trade" for $20 gold each... But later you find out that the company is loosing lots of money due to pirate raids. You could then go find the pirate base and eliminate them! Once the news gets out, your shares skyrocket to $50 gold each and you sell them for the profit!

*On the technical side of things, the economy doesn't have to be simulated 100%... It just has to be able to respond in a visible way to the player's actions. For example, lets say you complete the Traders' Guild quest line, soon you might start to see people wearing nicer clothes, and there would be fewer beggars on the streets. It just has to be enough so the player feels like their actions were important.

Consoles can do huge cities. Huge, non-interactive cities filled with lifeless robots that only walk in circles. You choose.

However, you are not supposed to be killing the townies, just the ones you listed. Well, you can kill the townies, but then there would be less people in the towns and no one to do business with. Or get quests from. Anyway, it's a game and it provides targets for you.

If the choice is between bigger, more detailled locals or more worthless crap to pick up, I will choose the former without a second tought. And even then, from Brotherhood onwards Assassin's Creed had some NPCs carry items useful for trade that you could pickpocket or take from their corpses. Same as TW2. I don't care that I can't pick up bowls or watermelons if they don't have a use. If that is the excuse, I say get rid of all those superfluous things. It's not like Bethesda didn't get a habit of cutting stuff from their games as of Skyrim.

And again, for the persistent NPC argument, would the series really miss them? The vast majority only exist to give you a comment while you pass by, maybe help for a minor quest. Maybe keep them on a lesser number, but add generic townsfolk to make the place seem, you know, populated. It's what TW2 did and it worked very well for me. And I would not mind less but more detailled and big cities, say 3 or 4, and dozen or so small villages about the size of Morthal. Still,, Skyrim is an improvement over Oblivion, who had almost no settlements save the big, walled cities, but they should take it a bit further.

Consoles can do huge cities. Huge, non-interactive cities filled with lifeless robots that only walk in circles. You choose.

Hey, you're preaching to the choir. I can't stand the tiny, dead feel of TES cities. And I think having endless junk you can pick is an utter waste of assets. Put them to better use by making the NPCs you do interact with actually interesting. Make the cities feel like actual cities where there is activity on every corner. More than half of the city NPCs in Skyrim say nothing more than random people do in the GTA4, RDR or the AC series as is.




The NPCs are lifeless robots now. They just stand behind stalls before they walk in circles to go back to their houses at night saying the same 3-4 lines over and over. And it has nothing to do with consoles. It has everything to do with an engine that is weighed down by tracking endless amounts of persistent junk that need not even be there.