In no way the BoS has the means nor the knowledge to replicate the institute technology,

One would say that their tech doesn't do any good, but that left to everyone's understand how you put it, it has however a fair chance at creating good things as it has for bad things.

A gatling laser in a supermutant brute's hand is a treat to human life, this doesn't make the weapon "evil".

But just an instrument.

Same goes for (most of) the Institute's technological progress, as it could be twisted for the dark side of the faction itself it can be, just as much, produce as much good as you want it to.

Medical progress, science progress, safety progress... if the institute wouldn't be so much busy hiding from everything they'd have options to do great things which most factions wouldn't ever be able to.

If their metabolism is frozen, it wouldn't weaken.

Curie didn't advance past her programmed personality until she was placed in a synth body. Curie even discusses how her programming created a obligation in her Mr. Handy body but how with the synth body she actually feels a desire to help.


Codsworth has a programmed personality, he attack his owner once he registers his owner as a bad person effectively. This shows how he can't transcend his programming more than how he has free will. He has clearly been programmed to like certain behaviors and is not imprinted to just like his owner.


Ironsides has a programmed personality. This is why he still thinks that the war is going on and laments that civilians are attacking the ship.


The designers tell you that they have a synthetic (man made) brain that functions just like a human's brain. It's a truth of the game universe that you basically have to just accept like plasma rifles and the ability to read/write human memories in the memory den. The debate is the implications of a synthetic person rather than 'do they have a mind' because that question is already answered by the author of the game's universe.

My particular issue with the Institute is not their position in relation to Gen-3 synths, but in relation to their position towards the rest of the world.

Regarding the synths, the members of the Institute are divided on whether they are sentient, or simply realistically programmed. 'Father' himself highlights that the synths are simply created machines, and that the Railroad is misguided in considering them otherwise...but he still creates a synth child in his own form, and requests the player character to take responsibility for him. Granted 'Father' is a sociopath raised in a cloistered society of technocrats which by and large has lost its' humanity, but the fact remains that even he has blurred lines in the debate.

However, what is clear is that the Institute has a vision of how 'they' will run things, and that 'they' are the future of mankind, which essentially relegates everyone on the surface to the level of cattle, being farmed to further the goals of the Institute. Basically, the intention is to extend their 'slavery' of the synths to encompass those people on the surface, perhaps not overt and explicit ways, but certainly to milk them for whatever is needed to protect or further Institute aims. Whether you consider that as slavery or imperialism is a moot point...ultimately they will extend control, and use the surface and its' people as resources to be used as needed.

I'd like to base my decisison to side with a faction mainly on the real world impact of their handling of current and future problems. And frankly said I cannot decipher the exact plans of the Institute.

I see the Railroad as goodwilling idealistic terrorists who will sooner or later help in the destruction of mankind. It's easy to get rid of them. Already done.

I see BoS as a typical autocratic and totalitarian left-or-right wing group which wants to make mankind happy with repression because humans are dump and suicidal, except of course the wise BoS guys. Indeed many humans are dump, lazy and suicidal but there are better ways to deal with it than BoS-style. BoS, my current ally, is marked for destruction.

But I'm stuck finding an opinion about the Institute. They did terrible things and have also a totalitarian structure. Could be changed easier as with BoS I think. But do they plan to use synths as a help for the population? Or as a means to oppress? Or what else? Do they have plans only to have a good life under the surface? Why not. Or do they want to rule the surface? If so, how? I could be the director but if many of the Institute members would oppose it would be a short-living affair I fear. Destroy or not?

So, I just barely made it to the Institute last night, have not made it too far with the BOS, done up to Castle for Minutemen, and done a bit for the Railroad.


Talking to Father last night for the first little bit of the Institute line. Honestly, I disn't get the cold emotionless vibe that everyone else seemed to get. I got a sense of self imposed detachment. But overall he seems pragmatic. Even his logs show that he really does have an emotional attachment to the SS, but he is putting it aside for what he sees as more important. Hell, he never says he released you just to see what would happpen. He says he started to have regrets in his old age, and then outright tells you he let you go after Kellog, so you could BOTH have some sort of revenge. He may act like he didn't care about his other parent, but that is just him being the stoic figurehead he's gotten used to being. As a scientist he views the synths as a great achievement, but thinks the Railroad is a nuisance. I can hardly blame him. The Railroad is killing synths just as much as the BOS. They give them all new memories, effectively erasing the 'person' they were before. Sure now they are free, but do they even remember WHY they wanted to be free of the Institute in the first place?


Yes, the institute has done some terrible things, but let's not forget they also tried to help the outside world in the beginning. Something happened that caused a rift. I'm sorry, but I'd rather NOT blow up the one place where science has actually advanced over the last 200 years. If they can be egotistical and yet still want to save humanity, then why not steer them back onto a better path to that goal?

So far there was only one attempt with making life on the surface better and that was only for four years.

The 'just wanted to see what happened' quote is from a later conversation.

(Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGJ8lqhC9QE- 1:44:00 mark)

To quote: "Certainly it was no longer necessary to keep you suspended... I... Well, I suppose I wanted to see what would happen. An experiment, of sorts. I had no idea of kind of a man/woman you were, you see. Would the Commonwealth corrupt you as it had everything else? Would you even survive?"

A man nearing the end of his life dethawed his only surviving parent, and instead of spending every waking moment with them, treating them with kindness and respect, and answering the questions of what/where/why immediately, leaves them in a post apocalyptic wasteland, perfectly willing to let them die (possibly to the Institutes own forces), and is watching/observing the whole thing.

Yeah. I don't have a high opinion of that.

It wasn't quite a hallmark moment and after that "Hey mom, do you want to work for me and betray all your friends".

IMO (and only my opinion), Father/Shaun is a sociopathic *bleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep* that should be standing trial for crimes against humanity.

I wouldn't call him a sociopath; such a person would likely be unable to have any feelings for synthShaun. Weird and somewhat twisted, yes, but not sociopathic.

The line that says he didn't know what kind of person you were is pretty much all I need. He could have been thawing out an evil [censored]. Why not let them see the wasteland for themselves. Maybe he planned on contacting you, or leading you to him earlier, but upon seeing as you were beginning to actually mold the wasteland yourself, he let you stay out there a bit longer and make your own way to him.


As for the four year time spent trying to make the surface better. I'd probably be apt to say screw you guys if no one was helping make it a reality. Honestly it doesn't seem like anyone wanted to live in anything but decaying ruins. Hell, Diamond City is supposed to be a jewel of the commonwealth...it's a little crappy shanty town. Everyone in the wasteland is apparently wearing scavenged clothing, and while they can manage to send someone on am errand to paint a freaking wall, no one can build a decent house. They can mod guns and power armor, but can't build indoor plumbing..so many other things that should be done in 200 years, even in a wasteland. Obviously wasteland erst just don't give a damn, so why would the Institute care to help them; they have a worse mentalits than the generation that actually cause the Great War.

Besides the nuclear generator what has Father actually done that's helpful to both the Institute and the Commonwealth? He is responsible for the FEV lab and the Synth infiltration, his entire time as director what good has he done?


He only shows feelings for a being that mirrors his entire image...I'd call that sociopathic, yes.

Appointed me as his replacement.

He views most synths as glorified toasters, yet has feelings for synthShaun. I think this is because he is the breakthrough he's been looking for, not because he is in his image.

What good has he done? Well, from a scientific standpoint, he is working towards creating a race that deserves to inherit the world. The FEV and synth replacement WAS screwed up, but it was a means to an end. No one else is seeking to rebuild the world, just control what is already there under their own ideologies. svcks to have to do some questionable things, buuuuut...gotta break a few radioactive eggs...

Actually, I might be wrong. He's a pscyhopath, not a sociopath.

According to Dr. Scott Bonn (a criminologist) in Psychology Today --

"Psychopaths, on the other hand, are unable to form emotional attachments or feel real https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/empathy with others, although they often have disarming or even charming personalities. Psychopaths are very manipulative and can easily gain people’s trust. They learn to mimic emotions, despite their inability to actually feel them, and will appear normal to unsuspecting people. Psychopaths are often well educated and hold steady jobs. Some are so good at manipulation and mimicry that they have families and other long-term relationships without those around them ever suspecting their true nature."

He also states:

"Key traits that sociopaths and psychopaths share include:

• A disregard for laws and social mores


• A disregard for the rights of others


• A failure to feel remorse or guilt


• A tendency to display violent behavior"

To answer the bullet points above (in order), Father is responsible for:

• Murder and kidnapping of civilians


• Experimentation upon said civilians with the FEV virus


• Referring to the death of a parent as 'collateral damage' and complete lack of guilt expressed over the first two points.


• Ordering the death of everyone in University Point. Ordering the death of the leadership of the Railroad. Using Coursers in general.

He's a textbook psychopath.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201401/how-tell-sociopath-psychopath

So if...my SS...yeah, my SS, has emotional attachment to family and friends, doesn't want to harm any innocents, but is not above sacrificing a few, or taking some of the same actions as Father, to make the world better, what does that make him...er her?

So... you'd sanction the kidnap of, the medical experimentation of, and the subsequent murder of innocent civilians?

If you answer yes to that, you're a psychopath and deserve to rot in prison.

Well, if raiders and general [censored]s (abusers, child molestors, and the like) are considered civilians...yes I would. Yes, i get that Father did it with 'innocents,' but pretty sure there was at least one case where the individuals 'innocence' was questionable.


Who's to say what kind of people he was really experimenting on. I mean. They all seem to go on to eat people and despise humanity as supermutants, at least some of them should ahold onto some memory of their humanity, unless there is a deeper more twisted reason for turning murderous cannibal once mutated...

There's a random encounter where if you pass a persuasion check, an institute synths asks you to kill the person he is trying to replace.

Father didn't specifically go after bad people, he went after anyone who showed any usefulness and would be considered a asset for research or espionage. Like the Diamond City mayor or innocent farmers. Gabriel was the product of the railroad. You're saying it was a good thing that Father created super mutants? Why? They kill and eat people, they're genocidal, hell if they got into the Institute they would slaughter everything they see.

We don't know why Father wanted it kept going, even the staff stated that nothing was showing any progress or holding any valuable research. Maybe it was Father trying to create a force that would further destroy the world above given he was already hellbent on the idea that the Commonwealth was doomed anyway.

Yup, and we know nothing about that individual, save that he is human. Who says there is any actual humanity in him? Maybe he's innocent, or maybe he's a serial killer. Why replace random people, who have no power or influence, certain individuals being the exception(although it could be argued the synth version worked for the power and influence), when they could just kill and replace the top brass of all the organizations that oppose them?

Just because you choose scummier individuals to perform experiments on doesn't make it any more moral and ethical to do than if you did it to a toddler. Just because the collateral damage is more 'acceptable', it doesn't absolve you of crimes against humanity.

Disliking Roger Warwick's alcoholism and abuse doesn't mean he deserves to die. He deserves punishment -- whether that be removal from his home, time imprisoned, or some sort of frontier justice like a savage beating -- but it's not a capital crime that he's guilty of and there's no justice in what happens to him. If he'd been a saint, the Institute still would have killed him and replaced him. They did it because he lives in a sanitation runoff area.

That also puts the question to -- what did Mayor McDonough do to warrant being replaced and murdered? Because we have no idea when it happened, it is very possible it was the Synth that had the ghouls thrown out of Diamond City, as Hancock says his brother was not the man he recognized anymore by that point. And the countless others?

As for your question about Supermutants, according to the Wiki:

"While they will not normally die due to the normal effects of aging, super mutants are prone to senility, leading to tendencies to engage in near-psychotic, aggressive attacks against other humans and other creatures."

"Fawkes also reveals that the "super-mutation" causes extreme pain and that it's the key factor that turns super mutants feral and inhumane. Fawkes states that he barely withstood it himself."

Not all are complete rage monsters, but the vast majority are. They are in agonizing pain constantly, and their heightened aggressor hormone production keys off this. As they get older, they get dumber, and are less and less able to fight the constant pain that causes the rage. I can count on one hand the number of ... reasonable... supermutants that have been shown in the various FO games.

You'll note even Virgil, a fairly calm and sedate scientist, is slurring his words and losing his fine motor control already.

This is just a bad argument. Why should you not just walk up to everyone you meet on the street and blow them away with a shotgun? You don't know they're not a bad person!

Murder is murder is murder. Outside of self defense (which is what killing Raiders or Gunners is), defense of others, or within the boundaries of warfare (combat between the factions - and there are plenty of people in the modern world who think even this is), murder remains murder, even in the wasteland.

Killing the real Art for any reason after the dialog choices is a murder, plain and simple.

Warwick's death is murder. All the dead supermutants in the FEV lab are people that were kidnapped, experimented on, and then murdered.

Every person that is killed by a supermutant the Institute released (or someone turned into a supermutant by the supermutants released by the Institute) is someone that was murdered, and the Institute is ultimately responsible for it.

The Institute is a damn murder factory. It's one of the many reasons I dislike the faction so thoroughly.

If true, this makes things much simpler. If that many of the Institute's issues can be blamed on Shaun's psychopathy and not the faction's culture, it should be easy indeed to reform it as Director.

It also means that I wouldn't call him evil, so much as sick. Sadly, there's no time to help him get well, as he's also dying of cancer.

Never said it was ethical. Experimenting on a less than savory individual would still be ethically wrong, experimenting on a toddler as you said, would be morally wrong. There is a difference. Ethics are formed by society, hence more reason for Shaun feeling justified and unattached. The Institutes culture could have no sense of ethical wrongdoing when experimenting in certain individuals.


As far as Frontier justice goes...those generally weren't just simple beatings.


The mayor, well. His brother is a junkie, so honestly I don't know how high a bar he is actually setting when he says his brother isn't the person he once knew. Even if he does remember, the mayor (the real one), wouldn't be the first individual to keep horrific secrets from family.


As far as the supermutants go, yes I may be wrong on that, but they are also different from the other ones in the wastleland. Different strain of FEV. Also, maybe Father released them to inspire the people of the commonwealth to get off their asses. It worked for the Minutemen forming. But still, they screwed up their own organization, not the Institute.