Mostly because they don't know what's actually up there. Most of them seem to think the surface dwellers are all like the raiders or are misshapen monsters. Even Father seems to think the whole place is dying a slow death.

I'm not going to change you mind, I can see that. And since the thread has been https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law. I think its best to just agree to disagree.

I will say though (since Godwin's Law is in effect), that Germany was obviously pretty horrible in WWII. At that time period, reformation must have looked impossible. Now look at Germany today. Should we have just given up on the German people then and wiped their country and people off the face of the earth?

Food for thought.

I don't think I enacted Godwin with that comment. I wasn't comparing you or them to the Nazis. I was just using them as an example of extremist prejudicial ideology.

Germany as a whole is drastically different today. But there are still many Nazis in the world who still harbor deep hatred for Jewish people. Similarly, legally enforced racism against black people has been "abolished" but it is still a very prevalent problem in our society.

It can be argued that it's due to a lack of understanding, but trying to improve the understanding of an extremely racist person is an essentially pointless task. Most of them just don't want to hear it.

And really...the Institute just svcks. They've committed some horrible atrocities against humanity. They've participated in what basically amounts to being the most unethical types of practices that scientists can participate in. Being a scientist myself, this makes it somewhat personal to me. Ethics in scientific research are very important, regardless of the situation. Kidnapping people and replacing them with synths is about as unethical as it gets. Those monsters should be thankful that I issued that evacuation order. I hesitated a bit before doing it.

Well this thread is diving into highly controversial territory at this point. So again agree to disagree.

The funny thing is, thinking back, if an NPC said this to me, they'd be a bloody splatter.

"...I thank you for your mandatory involvement in my experiment of Newtons statement of an object in motion..."

The institute does seem to replace arguably not great people with synths that seem to actually be nicer than the original (Warwick wasn't a good father or a nice person and neither was the original for the synth they caught in Good Neighbor).


But really, you shouldn't join the Institute hoping they change. You should join them because they're brilliant scientists with the courage to do what they want because they can.


As the Director of this brave organization, you will be able to live in luxury without having to worry about anything. And if killing off any of your friends bothers you, don't fret. The Institute can make a synth that looks and acts just like them based on your memories of them.


In the Institute, you want to investigate creating synthetic dinosaurs to use as your personal mount to ride around the Commonwealth? Done.


In the Institute, want to convert Liberty Prime into your own personal power armor? Done.


The Institute is the only group willing to fulfill your every wish as long as it's ridiculous and at least ethically questionable.

MMM points up at spiteful, Warwick is uhh not really a good example. Yes they did replace a drunken slob of a father with an actual better version. But cough when the experiment is over the place is to be razed and all the humans killed. The synth brought back and wiped. so yay for science

Least that was my take off what the computer notes said.

You know this (meaning the crop experiment) and pretty much all the notes from Virgil lab, and the wipe of said research elsewhere on every institute computer, Univeristy point (as mentioned by Jberry) pretty much told me ....... My "son" shawn is not to be trusted heheh. I do wonder where all the cybernetic notes, reserch program went humm DLC?

Thats uhh For me I do not begrudge people who like em, but to much stuff there did not add up when you put the timeline and pieces together. Shawn is a jerk who acts like hes not

Just finished the main quest line! Father died and all that. I am the director now. Yay. I have literaly NO power to influence anything Institute does. And they mostly treat me like erand boy.


What a dissapointment.


For example, when I shut down the mutiny of Biotech department by executing the department directors. Everyome in the Institute were like "too harsh you shoud have given them another chance". They friggin turned their synths on me while I was deputy director! They tried to kill me! If that is not a reason for execution what is.


Went to the Institute carefully but with good faith. Turned up bad choice.

It is disappointing, but that is a Beth thing, unfortunately. You become leader of a faction/guilt so easily, but you are still treated as a errand boy and can hardly decide anything if at all. It's the same with the minuteman - it's the same with the guilds in Skyrim, and IIRC in Oblivion too.

They think the player wants this, so he can feel he/she has something accomplished, but they fail to give this title a meaning.

1. Actually a fair point, except that it would be more like blaming Germans alive in an alternative universe where Germany won WW2, since those people are enjoying a life based on your sons kidnapping and the murder of your spouse......plus slavery (if you believe Synths are sentient), murder, human experimentation etc.

2. What?

Do all of the robots in Fallout count as well, since there is literally no difference between a low level Synth and a Robot beyond a humanoid shape and plastic skin. You can certainly make a claim that Snyths are some how special, but in reality most of that revolves around the newest types looking human and the game actually proves that you can take a robot's personality and place it in a Synth body......is that personality suddenly a person when they get a human like body?

I'd give the sentient Synth claim more credit, if people could come up with a reason why a synthetic human body somehow makes Synths more important than the robots that preceded them, many of which have displayed feelings as well.......it seems that the only thing that matters is the human body, as we have had several sentient AI already in earlier Fallout games.

3. They shut it down after it was sabotaged.......I don't remember any claim that a cure was the point of the experiment, anyway since they were actually causing the Super Mutants in the Commonwealth by experimenting on abducted humans the claim isn't really a strong one, that is similar to a Nazi 'scientist' claiming credit for a medical cure while ignoring the illegal medical human experimentation.

I guess, it all depends on play style and what you imagine your character to be and to develop into.

I for one plan on doing an institute playthrough. I get it, they're not the good guys, but you end up as their director. And, as has been said, even if the game doesn't answer that, you can start to direct them down a different path.

Also, there's no entirely humane group to join. The brotherhood? They plan on exterminating all mutations. Yeah, I know, these groups are bad and yada, yada, yada. Doesn't change the fact that they strike me as being too much into eugenics for my liking. They may still evolve into killing non feral ghouls or even humans if they don't fit into their perfect little world.

The railroad? All about Synths. Yes, I get it, Synths are evolving and enslaving them seems bad. But it's their one and only purpose.

And the minutemen? You can stay with them at any case.

Kellogg was still alive and in their employ (doing their dirty work) when you killed him.

The Institute and the Brotherhood of Steel both have their issues, but at least the Brotherhood of Steel has a history of helping people on the East Coast. The Institute only has a history of killing or experimenting on people.

I think these threads make some assumption about everyone wants to play as a good guy, so even if we couldn't change it, there are people like to see how far science can push it. Mama Murphy told us what happened, she's 100% accurate, so I would assume that there are sacrifice needed to be make which is seen as an acceptable loss, the experiment is seen as new beginning, creating new possibilities. I could see people siding with them out of possibilities such as researching Cabot's blood or restoring old world's gene. She specifically stated that people will hate you, but the Institute will save the world. While people may not like how she could predict the future, it's very clearly shown that she could and anything she said all turned out to be real. I doubt you could shut down synth production or even prevent all the unethical experiment, I'm thinking you could influence the direction but not all.

The Institute is bad, yes, but it also has the potential for good. They have means of producing high-quality metals, technological wonders, several types of medicine that could help the wasteland, advanced food production and the capability to make an army. I don't think making Gen-3 synths is a smart idea, I've seen that movie (Terminator) and I've watched an LP of that game (Snatcher) and I don't see any good that can come of the Gen-3 program. I think it's best to just keep with Gen-1 and 2.

The problem I see is they're dedicated to certain fields of research instead of other schools of thought, like philosophy, thus limiting the actual strive for knowledge they claim to be dealing with, another mistake is dad-son's idea of the surface being beyond hope. These people could probably make a G.E.C.K. if they took the time to do the project and their research can be very helpful to rebuilding the wastes and possibly making Boston into the seat of a technologically advanced civilization.

They have good parts about them and I'm probably going to pick them for my next playthrough but they definitely need a more strict code of ethics and to open their doors instead of playing "not home now go away"

The point would be that what would the Institute be doing by razing the Warwick farm that the original Warwick probably wouldn't have already done if they left him there? They just improved their lives in the short term is all.


Father shutdown the cybernetics program because he believed it was not the way to advance humanity. The notes suggest that he felt cybernetics would advance far enough to make those with them no longer human and thus be a self-defeating endeavor.


University Point was Kellogg's doing as well, he is the one representing the Institute to the mayor.

They also didn't drop the town into the water, that's preexisting damage with modifications built around it. The barricade is even mentioned in Jacq's notes prior to the arrival of the Institute.

yes but Father hated using Kallog and wanted him dead, the Coursers were probably no match for him and he probably would have killed most of them anyway so having Kallog killed would have cost him more than he would have gained unless you managed to kill Kallog like Father planned.

The real Catch-22 about the Gen3 Synths is that if you feel they are just organic robots, then they're no more of a threat then a sentry bot so you may as well start a 'destroy all robots' campaign. If you feel they do have free will (which is why Maxson sees them as a threat) then they're sentient creatures capable of negotiation and you're wiping out intelligent beings with just as much potential to help as to harm regardless of their personal beliefs.

Agree here, hate the institute myself, but see that you could easy make changes, you crack down on the rebellion against you too.

Either with your diplomatic skills or by killing everyone.

Both ways will set an standard and will be in an better position to give orders than Shaun is as soon as you learn the policy of the institute.

The Insitute are like Mr.House from NV. They're not evil but I wouldn't call them good either. They will do bad things if they think it's for the greater good.

My problem with them is their response to any problem is kill everyone in that area. It wouldn't kill them to talk things out at least once.

Did Father dislike Kellogg, well he tells you he did but there is no real evidence to back that up, indeed Kellogg continues to work under Father for decades.....I'd assume in that time he, being essentially a Cyborg needed to be tuned up occasionally (given them lots of options to deal with him peacefully) and frankly the idea that they couldn't have just teleported him directly into a terminal location or simply swamped him with the disposable early mark Synths is also laughable.......Kellogg was a disposable asset to the Institute, a second class citizen who could be counted on to do anything that they felt needed doing. I personally found his claim that he intended the sole survivor to kill Kellogg to be total nonsense, just his attempt to skip over the whole leaving him/her on ice (in case the body was needed) and cover up what a conniving smarmy git he grew into under Institute brainwashing. Really he throws a lot of claims at the player, like he released you expecting (in my first playthrough) the mother he had only known as a baby, who had no history of violence to become the Reaper of the Commonwealth slaughtering her way through Super Mutants (etc) with ease. I spent most of Father's dialogue going WTF is this [censored] talking about, I want a DNA test.

The Institute has long ago breached the most basic codes of ethics that have stood the test of time in science and medicine: first, do no harm. But their biggest foible of all? The one that reveals both their malice, their arrogance and their complete disregard for ethics, human well-being and logical coherence?

The make organic entities, that have been painstakingly engineered to pass as humans, they apparently "teach" these entities to behave as if they are humans, they kidnap real people who have committed no wrong against them or anyone else, and then they assign these "synths" to impersonate those people, all the while stating "Synths are not humans."

Let us stop and consider the full meaning of that statement "Synths are not humans." I agree with it, but what does it mean? It means that a human being is the height of moral and ethical imperative; despite its gross perversion from acceptable standards, the Institute by using this phrase repeatedly acknowledges that human life is the "pinnacle" of moral and ethical standards. At the same time, they treat human life as it was as inconsequential as a lab rat, and then to add cruelty and malice to it, they infiltrate human communities with their synths which they acknowledge are NOT human.

If they are not human, then why do you fricking DESIGN and PROGRAM them to mimick humans!?

The Institute is as bad as the worst genocidal social organizations to have ever been known in real history, if not worse.

It does make sense that a desperate group of scientists, locked underground in a post-apocalyptic world could veer this far down this cultural evolutionary path of pure evil, but there has assuredly been naysayers along the way and we see what happens to them. It is an authoritarian and inherently "anti-human" organization and there is not suitable end to it except for it to be dismantled and everyone involved to be held accountable, ideally by tribunal but short of that, by bullet to the head if it is the only expedient solution. I would even go so far as to agree with the Brotherhood that their technological knowledge should also be destroyed because it is so inherently perverted into evil--at least in the moral vacuum of the post-apocalyptic Fallout world.

In the real world, we can handle these things that push our ethical and moral standards, but in a post-apocalyptic world devoid of social order, jurisprudence or free press, it may well be that an "authoritarian" organization like the Brotherhood is a necessary evil. The Brotherhood is loathsome too, but orders of magnitude less so than the Institute.

I support them, if nothing else than because at the end of the game they start a Dark Matter energy initiative. Which is theoretically the most http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2008/04/15/dark-matter-anything-practical-about-it/. This is the sort of technology which could propel spacecraft to other planets with ease, and at the very least, solve energy problems on earth for all time.

I mean to be perfectly blunt, nothing above ground has achieved anything close to this sort of technology. Not anyone in The Commonwealth, not the Brotherhood, not The Enclave, and as much as I love the guy, not Mr. House.

Surface-world be damned. The Institute is breaking new scientific ground that is almost inconceivable. If there was ever a faction that may have the capability to completely terraform the earth and reverse all effects of the nuclear war, or just bug off to a new planet. Its The Institute.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7m1s2NFOGyg&t=0m12s

Great, so we get a "highly advanced dystopia" inperpetuity, and as if that isn't bad enough, we spread it to the cosmos.

Not my idea of the human dream being fulfilled.

A world in which every human life is NOT held "sacred" is not worth striving for. We'd be better off extinct.

The list of Institute sins is valid, but for me it really boils down to the personal aspect. Your son doesn't care that the institute killed one paretn and he opted not to save the other, preferring to observe how he'd respond to being dropped into hell instead.

Now, as it happens I became a badass, built an empire and have Piper and Curie both hanging off my arm so it worked out ok for me. But he didn't know that. So yeah, he catches a bullet in the head.

I think the key thing here is, once he was torn out of your spouse's arms in ca. 2217, he "was no longer your son." He was "adopted" by the Institute. At least half of genotype shared (meaning the tiny fraction of locii that can vary between human individuals), of course. As a consequence of that, perhaps _some_ general resemblance of temperament or latent predispositions and physical appearance? Sure.

But "your son?" No. In order for someone to be "your child" you must be "their parent" and that means socialization. The poor kid never had the benefit of your socialization, he was socialized by a bunch of mad scientists and/or a psychopathic cybernetic assassin.

Imagine what crazy 50s sci-fi shenanigans the Institute could accomplish if they recruited House, Father Elijah and the scientists from Big MT