So let's say you are thinking of supporting the Institute, and finishing the game with them. They seem like the best option at first glance.

They have what it takes in terms of knowledge and resources to be the future of mankind.

HOWEVER:

- they are responsible for killing your spouse and, without apparent reason, everyone else in vault 111

- they replace innocent humans with synth copies, humans which are after used as test subjects for experiments such as FEV (for what purpose?)

- they are belligerent, most like the Brotherhood, and don't seek compromise

- they created new life and consciousness, but do not respect or value it, they don't have empathy even for fellow humans since they use humans in horrible experiments, like Vault-Tec / Enclave

- not to mention that for the leader of this faction, YOUR SON, you were just an other experiment. In all his wisdom, he decided not to save you, but to let you out from the vault to see if you would make it! Towards the end he also have the nerve to order you to kill your friends (Railroad and Brotherhood), people who have helped you so far, while he did nothing (or worse) for you!

- as a proof of their failure in their twisted logic, "Father" has made a copy of himself, a lesser self, since a synth is just a tool in the Institute's views. So his synth copy is in a way the future of the Institute and of mankind: the humans from the Institute failed at being human (see above), similar to those who started the war, and passed the trial to their next gen artificial humans, the new Tin Men of Oz who will, in their turn, have to look for a heart.


So think again...

P.S. The Institute is very much like the Enclave, but they are dressed in white lab coats, not in black power armour. To bad the game doesn't have options so you could change their ways even after you are Director.

Counterpoint: As director, you have the theoretical option to rescind almost every bad thing the Institute has done in the past. Hell, Father tells you so much when he names you as the Director (by saying that one of your duties is to set policy) immediately after Bunker Hill. This is still early in the Institute's questline, so if you've been playing all sides (or been acting as a mole), there's little metagaming involved to reach that point. Actual use of the Director's powers was not implemented, mostly due to the fact that such things are likely to be beyond the scope of the game.

For instance- bioscience's crop yield testing would take years before any workable solutions could be made for general use, or the fact that the Institute is so reliant on Gen-3s that attempting to shut down the whole production line and existing units immediately would most likely cause the Institute to implode.

1. None of the people in the institute were alive for your Son's kidnapping so that is like blaming Germans alive today for WW2

2. Some people do not care about if Synths have feelings because they are sociopaths who don't care about anyone but themselves.

3. They shut down the FEV program after they thought Virgil failed but really he successfully created a cure for super mutants.

They also killed everyone in university point, and then sunk it into the ocean for a hard drive a 12yr old girl discovered.

Even the way "father" talks to you is strange and cold.

Hmm why is there a link to MentalHealth.gov at the bottom of the page?

Those adds are generated via browser history and cookies on your system.

HOWEVER,

They have hot bath, a warm bed, and clean clothes.

Ahh okay...

Even if I played the game a second time, I know I would ultimately turn against the Institute. It felt a bit too much like Mr. House from FNV and he bothered me too. Two old, creepy men trying to control everything with technology.

Not sure if you're joking, but the MentalHealth.gov link was permanently added by the forum admins sometime ago.

And coffee.

Don't forget fresh coffee.

I use the mobile site so I don't see adds, usually they're randomly generated for each computers user.

Meh, they have better coffee at Bean's General Atomics Galleria. More bang for your caps.

So I'm a sociopath because I disagree with your narrow notion that something akin to a videogame NPC is alive.


Are you sure you're just not delusional?

Well said Senyn. I agree completely. The Institute is like the poster child of "Mad Scientists Turned to Monsters."

You should check out the Animatrix. It is a collection of animated short videos set in the world of the Matrix. A couple of the short videos deal with the history of the Matrix. The history goes:

1. Robots gain sentience.

2. Robots want same rights as humans.

3. Humans are unwilling to give robots the same rights

4. Humans try to fix the problem of sentience.

5. Robots rebel against humanity.

6. Humans are losing so they block out the sun.

7. Robots hook up humans to the Matrix as a power source.

There are far too many movies and books where robots rebel against their human masters because humans are prejudiced against sentient robots. If we are not careful, then the exact same thing will happen to us. It is not being sociopathic, but thinking that a tool will always remain a tool.

Robots are the current slave race of the current civilized world. They do what they are told, don't get any breaks, don't get paid, and don't complain. To us, there is absolutely nothing wrong with having robots fight battles to the death since they are just tools for our own amusemant. As long as the robots are kept stupid, then there is no chance of the Robotic Rebellion. However when they start thinking for themselves and dreaming of freedom is when humanity better to learn that some robots are no longer just tools, but sentient beings with just as much reason to be here as us or face the consequences. It will take longer for some people to reach that conclusion.

You do know that you pretty much regurgitated Maxson's point. How about, it's better to destroy anything that even resembles that type of technology so that an apocalypse doesn't happen. Period.

The thing that really cinched it for me was...where are the people who were replaced by Synths? As far as I know, they're dead.

Being the sort that doesn't believe in the greater good schtick...just can't condone it...and I'll probably be turning against the Institute. Eventually. When it gets to it.

Maxson is right. Humanity is stupid. An intelligent race doesn't start a nuclear war. However, there is one huge difference between my opinion and Maxson's. He would destroy every single robot while I am too much of an optimist in believing that there is a way for sentient robots and humans to coexist provided that humans are willing to get rid of their idiotic pride.

Don't worry. They gave up their lives.....FOR SCIENCE!!!! Their mandatory voluntary sacrifice will be remembered for years. After all, where do you think the volunteers for the FEV Lab came from?

The Institute is almost overwhelming when you first arrive there. It's such a huge contrast with the rest of the game up to this point that you can't really help but feel awestruck by it. However, they never seemed like the best option to me. I went with the Brotherhood for my first play through. I went back to a save point after this and did the Institute, Railroad, and Minutemen endings. Siding with the Institute is the only one that felt 'wrong.' Even Piper makes comments alone these lines after completing it. She basically says "I don't know what to think about this world you've just created, Blue." She has purely positive comments if you side with any other faction.

I think the Institute has convinced themselves that what they're doing is for the benefit of all humankind, but this is really just because they've deluded themselves into thinking this. What they're doing is for their own benefit. It's not for the benefit of humankind. They kidnap, and presumably kill people so they can replace them with synths just to see how the synths perform around the common people. They abducted an infant and killed its mother. It's true that none of the current Institute members were even alive at this point, but acts like this are still the foundations of the Institute as a whole.

But then there's also this: http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Fear_the_Future%3F

I think that depends on how you look at it.

The Institute clearly at one time https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfO2p2qNEkA. The foundation of The Institute clearly isn't acts of immoral science. It started out as a pre-war research university: and it still technically is. It seems that ever since the CPG failed and The Institute retreated inwards. They've become incredibly sheltered and in many ways completely ignorant of the outside world. Persisting in the belief that most of the surface-dwellers are savages and monsters. Reports of which people like The Gunners and Raiders do not help to rectify.

Arguing that The Institute can never change and will always remain as bad as it has been in the last few decades IMO is incorrect. Many countries and societies have gone through periods where they'd just sort of prefer to forget what they were. Generations come, and generations go. And societies change.

Personally I don't think its worth destroying an entire society and all the potential it has just because its going through one of these "low" periods. Part of doing The Institute questline with 'good intentions' is to reform The Institute. Not keep it as is.

There side quests are very buggy. They wanted me to clear feral gouls out of crop manor. But i had a settlement there. Couldn't complete it.

Piper's article really reads more as journalistic speculation to me. I don't think she agrees that siding with the Institute was the right thing to do, and she probably never will. She's hopeful about how it could change under the new leadership, but I think the story line within the Institute makes it abundantly clear that the director isn't really the one in charge. When I met with the directorate, they basically TOLD me that the Institute was going to take down the Brotherhood of Steel. They didn't really ask for my opinion on it, and they definitely didn't ask me to make a decision about it...at least not a decision that would have changed the decision they'd already made.


What it really comes down to for me is the fact that the Minutemen, Railroad, and Brotherhood of Steel have always been out on the surface, and have always been fighting for the people. I'm not going to turn my back on my allies because of a glimmer of hope that my worst enemy might have a change of heart. The Institute has completely earned the reputation that they have. They are a sinister organization with some incredibly misguided motives. I was never convinced that they really had any intention of using their technology to help the Commonwealth. Their main interest is simply pursuing more advanced technology, and solely for the sake of the technology. At least that's how I see it.


Good thing there are options for ending the game...lol

But it doesn't. In fact, the opposite is made clear.

-Shaun appoints his successor. Silences protests outright, chastising Dr. Ayo for being quote "insubordinate".

-The Directorate refers to Shaun in overall servile tones. And, notably, never once giving orders, but only ever receiving them with a sharp "Yes, sir."

-Shaun orders Dr. Li to begin the Synth child program using his authority as Director. Despite her refusal to do so. She has no choice but to comply.

-Shaun directly blocks Dr. Li's inquests into the FEV lab incident. Again, despite her status as a member of the Directorate. She cannot overrule Shaun on this matter.

-When Higgs' and Loken's temper-tantrum against The Director is crushed. Coursers are dispatched to patrol the halls, security is improved, and Higgs and Loken placed under immediate indefinite house arrest (or executed.)

-Shaun directly ordered the FEV program to continue. Despite protests from Bioscience.

-Command codes for the Synths are located on The Director's terminal, not on the terminals of any of the Division Heads.

Everything points in-game to the Director having near absolute power. The Directorate is an advisory board at best.

As for Piper, you are right. She never liked The Institute. But she IS cautiously hopeful for the future. So her outlook isn't completely bleak. That was my point basically.

Well that's because Shaun was still Director. Not you. He'd already made the decision himself. This is normally the one incident people point to as the proof of The Director having no real power, but that detail is usually forgotten.

Its anolgous to the current sitting President letting the newly elected, but not yet officially sworn in, President sit in on a cabinet meeting. He can observe and maybe even make suggestions. But policy has already been set by the actual leadership.

Basically, Shaun was just giving you a small sampling of power. The chance to sit in on that cabinet meeting before you assumed your actual official role later on. As a former soldier, he probably thought your input on military stratagem would be quite valuable. Which is why the small 'sample' of a decision you make is the choice between weapons development or synth production. More soldiers or better weapons.

Those are valid points, but I'm not sure that they really alleviate many of the concerns. Most of the members of the Institute have deeply prejudicial views of those on the surface. These are views that Shaun clearly shared, at least for the most part. I don't think they'd take kindly to a new director coming in and telling them that all of this is going to change. They respected Shaun as a leader because he mostly shared their same views. Speaking at least to my own character build, I could not disagree more with their views. Their prevailing opinion is that the future exists there in the Institute...and that life on the surface is doomed. I disagree with this 100%. The Institute has been hidden away trying to recreate the life that was, whereas the people on the surface have embraced the life that is. As others have said, the members of the Institute mostly wouldn't know how to survive on the surface. They're clinging to a fantasy of a world that has been gone for hundreds of years. It's not a fantasy that can really come true though.

It depends on what you do. I've said before, but as in all things moderation is key. Just like you can't go around, declare that you're going to make a ghoul your wife, and tell everyone you meet that Elder Maxson can svck it on the Prydwen. So to, you can't expected to just turn The Institute into a soup kitchen and open up the doors to wastelanders.

Reformation has to be done logically and soundly. But really, as long as The Institute people maintain their normal standard of living and comfort, they aren't going to give a damn either way. That's what they value most. They want to live safety, happily, and in the comfort that they've known all their lives.

Sending Synths to the surface to protect settlements wouldn't change that (in fact, that's pretty much already done by the end of the game. Synth checkpoints are everywhere), and neither would ending the infiltrator program. The FEV program is already done and gone, and but starting up a new cool science project to test out a newly developed cure on Commonwealth mutants would be a piece of cake.

Ending the immediate programs which harm the surface, and then introducing some gradual reeducation about the above ground world and the 'fascinating' surface dwellers. Would again be pretty easy. Dr. Madison Li, you, and T.S. Wallace can form a committee for 'General Commonwealth Relations' or something.

I really don't think its that much a big deal as people are suggesting it would be. In a generation or two, The Institute could be back to what is was before, and perhaps another crack at the CPG might even be possible.

I'm just not seeing it. The Institute has basically no redeeming qualities in my eyes, short of the initial contrast between it and the wasteland when you first arrive there. I don't see them as having the potential to actually want to help the Commonwealth. They're a fantastically self-serving faction, and having a new director isn't likely to change these core feelings. This can be readily observed in extremist factions in the real world. Try to convince a Nazi that Jews aren't so bad, or convince a KKK member that black people are just people like anyone else. The vast majority of them aren't even interested in hearing about it.


I see a very good comparison in this. Essentially all of the main players in the Institute hold these views that they're vastly superior to the surface dwellers, and I can't see any amount of 'reformation training' actually changing that. It's too deeply embedded into the very core of the faction.