Epic...

i used to make jokes about an arrow to the knee to
then i? took a mace to the face...

You do sound a bit like a curmudgeon. But I like curmudgeons. :biggrin:



Yes. I'm one of those people who likes fantasy ... China Mieville, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, Mervyn Peake ... but I can admit that I don't like stuff that's any nerdier than the aforementioned. There's nothing wrong with Bethesda going after the broadest possible market. Mainstream doesn't always mean dumber. All of the authors I've mentioned were/are pretty popular by fantasy standards, so much so that people who didn't/don't normally like fantasy read them. This doesn't mean the quality of the writing is any less worthy of praise. It just means the authors managed to tap into something more universal and/or interesting than the average fantasy author has been able to. Let's not forget JRR Tolkien, either.



This refrain has been sung for millenia, as you've pointed out. Your view of the youth is tinted by a wish to hold onto what once was but is no longer. Things change, people move on ... and then at some point they return to where they once were. This lament- that people are becoming dumber and dumber- may ring true, but it's not. They're just focusing their intellect elsewhere.



Not currently. Things will change. The pendulum swings one way, and then the other.

Yeah, this hat fits, at least for me. After I realised this my view of youth changed dramatically. Just the other day my nephews and nieces were here at my place watching my old DVDs and making fun of me because I have shelves stacked with original CDs. They treated as some sort of Totem from ages past: "OMG! Uncle is, like, totally old" to put it mildly.

I then described the following situation:

"O.K. So you guys will be older one day, and let's assume that in your 50s - way in the future - you're hanging out somewhere and you see a couple. The woman is down on her knees casually giving a blow-job to her boyfriend in the middle of the living room while the rest of the family watches a football game..."

At this point I was interrupted by a mixure of giggles and screams of disgust. "Uncle!!!!! Eeeeeewww!!!!"

To which I replied:

"See? Don't look now, but you guys are cranky old people already. Because when you're sitting on your boyfriend's lap giving kisses on him while messaging a friend on Facebook, granny feels exactly like you guys felt about what I just described."

The fanbase. That is what is wrong with the entire series.

Heh. Quite good. You know what, though? I still enjoy the game.

No arguments there. Amem brother.

The new internet sensation.

omg so many words my console players tiny brain has exploded seriously though theyre a company ie stock holders employees if they make more money good 4 them ive all of tes game except oblivion (i was on pc) i still enjoy skyrim

I never said I didn't. A Bethesda game shallow by their usual standards is still streets ahead of the usual 5 hour long generic shooter. :tops:

Whoa, so many things to answer too, nice discussion.

Sulo, first of all, you are BOSS. Just came home from work and was flabbergasted by your response. Thank you very much indeed for a very in-depth and stimulating response, you do me much more credit than I deserve.

I take that as a compliment but please, don't exaggerate. I am surely not boss or something. Maybe this kind of discussion is not usual in these forums, but there are places where it is normal to discuss Skyrim in that way and people don't take things personally.

...[...]the youth cannot be blamed alone. I don't have enough knowledge of roman history, but doesn't it seem safe to assume that older people were just as guilty as the youth for the loss of republican values before the they became an empire? We are of similar ages, don't you think people in their 40s and 50s are as guilty as kids for messing things up?...[...]

We had a lengthy discussion about this at work today, not only because of Skyrim, but as well, and what you wrote is being seen by many people. But then why people don't do anything about it? How come that older people join in to the indifference? As I pointed out earlier with the citation - not only the youth but as well. In the 60s young people were the guilty conscience of society (at least in my country). They pointed out where things were stinking and made themselves be heard. In the 90s and 00s nothing happened, that was a totally hopeless generation, including myself being part of the conservative establishment in these times. Now, and that is my hope, things are slowly changing (the occupy movement for example) but on a general scale I have the feeling about the older people being indifferent because they are older and the youth, because it is more comfortable. Something is definitely wrong.

a ) Look at the Civil War Quests.

What you describe is done absolutely well and I never criticised theses quest. When I write about quests, I write about guild / side / minor quest. Main quest and historical setting are very well done. Reminds me of New Vegas where every choice is good and bad. Far better than Fallout 3 where you have to follow the main quest without yes or no. And better than Morrowind, where the main quest is simply a one-way lane. I never denied that.

...she yelled "Mercy!" and I just finished her off with a full swing to her spine...

If they would REALLY give up, I would have spared so many of them. But this is done completely wrong, your opponent just waits for his health bar to fill up and attacks again. Crap. Health bar refills itself, is this Mass Effect or what? Man.... So I don't think too much about that. Well, I am playing as an imperial so I play thinking of them as insurgents which have to be neutralized because my superiors say that. IRL looks a bit different.
But again, I have to repeatedly admit that the presentation of the internal conflicts is not the problem, this is done very well.

c) There are Quests in this game like the begining of DB. I mean, we get to a house where a child lives alone and, as we walk in, he's summoning dark gods to bring assassins to his door so he can have his headmistress killed, so that he can escape a life of oppression inside an orphanage. How PG13 is that, really?

A very good point indeed - if we were in the 90s. But we aren't. What I see in children's television nowadays and films being PG (or whatever) 12 or 15 which are very shocking. No one does matter anyway. As I said, good point but something like this has turned normal nowadays. With films being lowly rated with much more shocking content and things like that. Overall, most guild quests are nothing new. From the random quests of Daggerfall to the repeating, but funny quests of Morrowind to the suprisingly shallow quests of Oblivion. Where is the innovation in gameplay that justifies the hype being made because of Skyrim Show me something that has not been there before? Quests? Races? Open world? They just improved graphics a bit and presented this kind of game to a broader audience. That is the real innovation. Now even history professors can play Elder Scrolls. And this is not a fact for me to criticise.

d) Now take a look at Morrowind

I take and have to say two words. More diversity. But I already said that MW has been more oneway than Skyrim. Okay, so I actually love Fallout New Vegas (being a fan since part 1). More choices, more drama
But nonetheless this is not my main point of criticism about Skyrim. I always keep posting that the setting and screenplay are well done in Skyrim. The main story is rather "basic" as you said. But this is Bethesda. Last good main story has been Daggerfall, though I even liked Morrowind. Oblivion and Fallout 3 were more: "meh".

What I really don't like about it is the shallow level of complexity, the thin variety of magic and the so-called radiant-story whatsoever. I forgot the name. I don't know what the new thing about that is. I read that it does not send you into the same dungeon twice, but this is clearly wrong because I had that two or three times (having to clear the same dungeon - i.e. I scouted a place for myself, killed everyone and then everything respawned there and I had to kill a nameless bandit leader there.) Obviously does not work as intended. Guild quests are short and boring, getme, bringme, fetchme - awww, c'mon. Innovative? Too few guilds for me, nobody recognises me as Thane, even when I am the dragonborn everyone treats me as a beggar. The balancing is not that good, levelling is too fast and I am totally overpowered at level 50 (expert level). Just to name a few. I don't mention questbugs, breakers, gfx bugs because that is normal nowadays and especially at Beth games. That I am used to.

if you dont want to be called a pc elitist then stop saying things that make you one genius.

In my understanding a pc-elitist is somebody who thinks that pc players are better than console players. I am somebody who is sorry for the fact that Bethesda went for the big game and attacks the mainstream market. This brings changes, which I understand, but do not like. I don't tell anyone what to do or that I am better. I just say that I absolutely don't like the direction in which this series has changed.

Obviously you only read the first three words of every sentence or my usage of the english language is too bad for you. I am sorry in both cases.

I found Skyrim to be like an Olympic-sized swimming pool full of beer. Only you discover that the pool is only 1" deep from end to end. Sure, it's still a whole lot of beer, it will still be fun to get through and will take you a long time to do, but it's deceptively shallow, and disappointing when you realise there isn't as much there as you first thought.

What a great metaphor! I would not have found this image. I should drink a beer now, which beer do you like most?

You do sound a bit like a curmudgeon. But I like curmudgeons.

This is absolutely awesome, because this morning my wife sent me off bed (to the bakery) with almost the same words. Added by: "now move".

Yes. I'm one of those people who likes fantasy ... China Mieville, Robert Jordan, Robin Hobb, Mervyn Peake ... but I can admit that I don't like stuff that's any nerdier than the aforementioned. There's nothing wrong with Bethesda going after the broadest possible market. Mainstream doesn't always mean dumber. All of the authors I've mentioned were/are pretty popular by fantasy standards, so much so that people who didn't/don't normally like fantasy read them. This doesn't mean the quality of the writing is any less worthy of praise. It just means the authors managed to tap into something more universal and/or interesting than the average fantasy author has been able to. Let's not forget JRR Tolkien, either.
This refrain has been sung for millenia, as you've pointed out. Your view of the youth is tinted by a wish to hold onto what once was but is no longer. Things change, people move on ... and then at some point they return to where they once were. This lament- that people are becoming dumber and dumber- may ring true, but it's not. They're just focusing their intellect elsewhere.
Not currently. Things will change. The pendulum swings one way, and then the other.

I am more into the SciFi genre (I.Asimov, F. and B. Herbert, D. Brin). There is nothing wrong in what you say. But I still don't like it because I fear the pendulum will NOT swing back in any case. I know that things change because things are constantly changing. But I like the "stats" thing and not the "wii" or "kinect" thing with my TES games. Of course I do not make a comparison between what to praise more or less. But if I am given something I don't like, I state it and do not praise it. I won't follow the mass. And what most Dovahkids here forget is that I am a customer here not a solicitior asking nicely for a patch. I paid hefty bucks for that game, not my uncle or someone.

And you are right, I am trying to hold on a bit longer to what brought me more fun than this.

to merc20:
No need for trolling, mate. I did not state that console players have tiny brains but that young people are the biggest (future) market, nowadays mostly on consoles. Because of this the trend obviously goes away from stats more to entertaining, for that is a trend not only in gaming.



Now I think I fetch myself a beer... Cheers to everyone.

Good to finally see some grounded discussion around these parts.
The mod forums usually are the places where these take place, since most of the time that's where the people are at who want to find an answer to their questions or solution to their problem, than set to work to get there.
Its great that the TES series offer this freedom; the consequent installments evolve and get released into the wild imagination of its users and continue to live lives of their own.

Although I, of course, agree on most of your points in that the games have been growing towards a broader audience and have become less complicated/deep. I also see that the TES series which allows older gamers, long time and new fans to grow with the game.
If you can alter your game experience by mods and role-playing as you like, to the point where it fits your needs of what an Action Role-Playing-Game should be like, than something great ahs been accomplished.
In that regard, I think Skyrim is the epitone of this dynamic freedom as it great out of the box and can be swung in any direction from that point.

I think this is mostly true, except for the story/quest/relationship aspect(s). This will be much harder to rectify, but it was done with Oblivion, so there's no reason mods shouldn't be able to do it to Skyrim, too.

Skyrim is a great template. Now people just need to add to it. They will.

I am eagerly awaiting the Construction Set to get my hands on it. This is a good way to alter my personal gaming experience towards my preferences - and this is good about the Elder Scrolls Series, ever since TES III. But unfortunately this time we will have to wait for too long because they try to implement it into Steam and that taaaakes tiiiiime... :whistling:

blaming console players is what makes you look like a pc elitest.

the problem is the corporate attitude that they have to make more money for less work. it doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that bethesda cut corners at every place possible in this game. you can see this problem everywhere, not just the gaming industry. did it every occur to you that it all of our faults, because instead of demanding a truly quality game we buy whatever flashy crap they put out?

1.) For the first sentence -> I DO NOT BLAME CONSOLEROS. NO. I DO NOT. I BLAME BETHESDA AND THE OVERALL TREND. NOT THE PEOPLE. My goodness, how often I have to repeat that. Read what I write. I have never blamed console players, nowhere. I blame Bethesda for releasing a sh*tty console port for my pc. PC hardware updates faster than console hardware, you agree? I expected something for the ending year 2011 and my modern rig, not my old xp rig. Skyrim runs smoother on my xp-rig than on my 64bit-rig, that can't be normal! I blame the creators for being ignorant to pc-people. AGAIN, I DO NOT BLAME PEOPLE PLAYING ON CONSOLES. Hope you got that this time.

2.) The rest: -> Very good. Here I comply. The problem is that you have to buy this product to rate it. I don't trust the press for they are paid organ monkeys. I don't trust other people's opinions either. Every person has its own method of perception. So I have to look myself.

And there is the problem. I buy a game and state what I don't like. If games do not have obvious errors, you can't give them back in my country. I don't want to lie either, so I have to keep it. Skyrim technically runs not too bad on my rig, no dramatic things or flaws. But I totally agree with you with not buying flashy crap. I stopped buying games of "Jowood" because of Gothic 3. (Gave that back to the store then -> Jowood are out of business anyway). There I made a statement and will by boycotting every firm that rips me off. I don't buy many products available by many firms because of one thing or another. What can I do more as a consumer? Bethesda has time to improve their product I bought, clever enough, they are using the community via modding and in February I got an other game.

Until now, I have been not too unhappy with Bethesda products, after licensing NV to Obsidian I even was very content. Now they did that Skyrim thing and I doubt I will buy a Bethesda product at release date again, don't mention buying a CE again. That is what I can do so far. I won't believe their PR next time, this for sure. Im my point of view, Oblivion has been half-a$$ed, but tolerable. Skyrim scratches the edge very hard. And if things develop in the direction I fear they will, then I will not buy the next TES game. But if I post all my thoughts here in the official forums, I get negative reactions and people tend to read what they want, just like you. It is also dumb to deny players a positive experience, I do not do this. If someone likes Skyrim, very well, his opinion, his fun. But where should I state complaints or objections?

Now tell me, what should I do more and where?

You write we should DEMAND a truly quality game? How? By posting here before release, during development? We did, some things were realised, many not. And now? Their information policy was very vague most of the time? How should I demand something? By stating "...either you... or I won't buy" or what? No, this does not work anymore, especially not in the game industry. You have too many people out there buying unreflected and eating what they are served. But again, that is how the business works. When I was 15 or so, I would have bought (I did) buy every Westwood / AD&D game there was. Now I am older and more cautious, but not totally immune to fanboyism. Elder Scrolls has been the ONLY games series left which I bought more or less unreflected. Has been.

I have talked very often and thought even more about the "corporate attitude thing" you mentioned. But I came to no clear conclusion - only stopping purchase as a last choice. But the Elder Scrolls simply were not (and are not) in that stadium so far.

Hey Sulo, how's it going brother?

Would you agree that the previous generation faced a social context in which they were constantly challenged to not only survive, but improve? Not just WWII, for example, but the previous generation faced a system they didn't believe in, that hampered their choices. My continent - South America - was riddled by military regimes up to late 80s, we still have some cooks out there with excessive power on their hands in some Latin American countries. Our generation - their children - were brought up in a painless world. Painless in the sense that the middle class had much more privileges, the world became sterile, even if only on a fake symbolical level.

I live in the capital of Brasil, and because of my work have frequent contact with some of the US Embassy staff. Throughout the years I've made long-life friends with some of them and got to visit the US. This is one thing I think most americans did it right, very right: their middle class seems very aware of the intrinsic values of work, not only as a necessity in terms of bringing income, but values in and of itself, values that form character and strength. Simple things like telling a kid to clean his room, for example, even if the family can afford a nanny, a driver and a maid. I was amazed at their level of awareness in terms of how does a house's electric system work, how to fix toilets etc.

On my last visit I went to Baltimore, to see some old friends, and we had a couple of beers while talking about this. It seems that most american children and teenagers nowdays also lost that ability. They're becoming lazier and lazier, but some recognise that the way they were raised has something to do with it, it's not like they lack something in their DNA (I'm aware you never even implied something similar, I just used it as a joke). But in the end you're right on the money when you ask 'why'? I don't know either. Also, I sincerely think the population growth is a serious factor in all of this. Planet Earth more than doubled its population in less than 50 years! In the 60s we had 3 billion and some change; now we already passed the 7 billion threshold (sic?). Too many people, not enough to go around, from water to jobs, from parking space to a spot where you can sit down with your family at the mall.

What does Skyrim have to do with this? Well, superpopulation makes it easier for an estabilished company to make profits. No matter what choices they make, they seem to grasp the ability of putting a product that is well polished, at least in the sense of grabbing a large enough share of the market.

But here's the Catch 22 for me: they actually managed to spread out without selling their soul to the devil. You made this point better than me so I'm just gonna repeat myself for argument sake (to strengthen it). Your presence here for me works as proof of that. You put some hard-long hours into Skyrim, as I have, and we're still here, still interested in talking about it. I think it's a clear sign that, regardless of frustration, Skyrim still provided us with a more than worthy experience, which is something I cannot say about many games nowadays.

Best regards from Brasil.

I think those things are great (full disclosure, no DB for me yet), but I think the game while somewhat grey never seems to touch motivations for anyone. Why are the characters on the side that they're on? Sheesh, why is Ulfric so devoted to Talos (ysmir actually) that he's ready to commit treason and start a civil war? Why do no NPCs seem to have an opinion of the Civil War, the Talos thing, the Thalmor, or anything else? Why is it that I can join any college and not really have to worry about how my "faction" is going to take the news? I would think that Nordish rebels might not like my Dark Elf Mage straight outta mages college -- considering the background.

I've been fairly outspoken on the lack of real choices with consequences and the puzzles. The choices you make are mostly for show -- I've yet to come up to a character who didn't like me for my faction, or who noticed anything that happened in any of the questlines. They don't even seem to notice either way when the civil war is over. Strange that. And as far as puzzles -- it's far from the easiest game out there (play FF10, you'll never be lost -- the maps are literal straight lines, and the on by default "help scrolling thing" will literally tell you how to defeat any boss you come to), but it's not hard to look at a key and enter a code. It's not hard to spin three pillars, and in at least one case, the NPCs are standing there telling you to "look for a switch". I've never been stumped to say the least.

Everyone is obsessed with death!!!

I do agree that the "arrow to the knee" joke is dumb, but the hipster mentality in this thread is sickening.

That's an interesting topic! I think that both Free Skyrim! and Sulo have valid arguments and should be heard by the developers. They are not hipsters, they are simply mature fans who would see our favourite series developed in a more complex, complete and artistic direction. The Elder Scrolls lore has a lot of narrative potential, surely not less than the witcher saga or other "mature" RPGs on the market, and BGS has also the potential to work well on it. They simply have to find the courage to look beyond the requests of the casual audience and try something more ambitious, starting with Skyrim's DLC.

True. I think things like that could be addressed with more in-depth dialogues that could come in a hybrid form. Text-only dialogues could accomplish that. I think BGII had it right, a good system that I still find it up-to-date: you'd receive some initial voiced dialogues to set the NPCs mood and then the rest would be accomplished with long text dialogues. I think mods will be able to implement this, fleshing out several dialogues and themes around Skyrim.



Oh don't worry sweetie, you'll get older too and one day people younger than you will come up with another word to describe how disgustingly outdated you are too. It goes in circles you know. But hey, good game Wayman.

People have got to start getting out of this faction mentality with Skyrim. The rebels, imperials, thalmar, etc are there to bring life to the world. Youre role in this world is to...kill dragons! Because you are the dragonborn. Why do the Nord rebels not attack your dark elf mage? Because you are the dragonborn! In another thread someone wondered why rebel guards wouldnt attack or question him when he was wearing imperial armor. Why would they? They need you! Because youre the dragon born! Those same guards will even comment on you being the dragonborn. Factions are irrelevant to the bigger picture. Dragons are back and only the dragonborn can end them. No point to the factions anyway if the whole world is destroyed by dragons amirite? Enjoy skyrim, enjoy the world Beth has created, but ALWAYS remember, you are the dragonborn, everyone knows you are the dragonborn from the get go. You can do anything and are supposed to feel that way. You are not a no name wastelander who comes and goes. You are dragonborn. dragonborn. Thank you.

A lot of things are personal in Skyrim. People are living and carrying out their lives. They have mouths to feed or an entire hold to take care of. There is so much going on all they can focus on is taking care of those people and the immeadiate problems surrounding them. Or some of them sit around and talk about how they love the imperials, rebels, or whatever. Much like the real world. In a very broad sense, when you get down to it, when you are not finding a reaction from an npc that you want, just remember this: you are the dragonborn, youre destiny is to end an ancient evil. And if that evil is allowed to remain, nothing else matters.

Unless you ended the dragon threat and fulfilled your destiny.

There isn't much excuse for someone to call you "Nord" when you're a high elf.

You must be talking about playing after you completed the main quest. At which point, I believe, you have completed the game as the developers saw fit. Due to much qqing over past games they have allowed you to continue enjoying the "meat and potatoes" of the game after you finished it. And that is exploring, questing, and enjoying the scenery. Not to provide you with a living, reacting world after you have fullfilled your destiny. It would be cool, I admit. But now we're treading on hardware, desing, and programming limitations.