in Daggerfall you could simply ignore to heed the call of Brisienna and the MQ would simply go away.

that is what i like.

My char hates being the hero. That is why she never finishes most things. She loves the Mages Guild for example, but certainly never wants to be called 'Arch Mage'.

Main quest? Nah. Let those big strong Blades do it - that's what they get paid for. A scrawny bowgirl saving the empire? Don't be silly!

Arena? Fighting is fine, but not to the point where you can't walk down the street without getting recognized as some champion. Ugh.

KOTN - No way. Divine What?!?

She did help Mazoga, and doesn't even like being called a knight-errant. She only did it because Mazoga was nice to her - well, after a few growing pains.

She really just wants to hunt and live her live in and around Bravil. Trouble is, people keep askin' her to do stuff. . . .

Without the Champion of Cyrodiil, though, Martin really couldn't have done it at all, and all the hard work is done by you, Martin is just the person who sits around and tells you what to do next. It's only at the end that Martin really accompishes something, in short, Martin played the role of Caius Cosades (except that he didn't leave half way through the main quest and leave someone else to guide you through your remaining task.) just with the ability to summon a Deus Ex Machina, and he gets all the credit for doing the work. Even if I had wanted to not be the main character of the story, Oblivion did it poorly.



It's not like you have to in the Elder Scrolls, you can choose to steal or murder instead, there are even quests designed with stealing and murdering in mind, and at least in Morrowind, several quests can be aolved by lying. Though in this case, lying is sometimes presented as the good option because lying is a way to get out of doing something morally questionable. Such as being sent to kill someone who doesn't deserve it and being presented with the option to allow that person to leave town and lie to the quest giver that you killed that person instead of actually killing that person.



Pretty much everyone who isn't in the Sixth House will tell you that Dagoth Ur is an enemy, and people who believe in the Tribunal even actually call him "evil" or even "the devil", and in any case, he wants to drive all outlanders from Morrowind, and slaughter whoever won't leave, you're an outlander too, so naturally, this is very bad for you, and for that matter, bad for all non-Dunmer in Morrowind, and even for the Dunmer who would be happy to have the Empire leave Morrowind, for most of them, I don't think becoming a horribly twisted, diseased abomination would be a very appealing way to live. It should be pretty obvious that, even if not outright evil, Dagoth Ur is still a danger to the world. And whether you're really the Nerevarine doesn't matter all that much, what matters is that someone has to stop Dagoth Ur, and you're the one who has to do this. Whether the Tribunal really deserve to be cast down or not is really the only area where there's room for doubts.



Just because a device has been used a lot doesn't make it bad. Sometimes, certain plot devices are overused because they work, if writers were to abandon plot devices simply because everyone else uses them, they would have very little to work with.

In video games, there is a very good reason why this plot device is used. Because while one person may not be enough to run a country or win a war, unless you're playing a multiplayer game, one person is all you need to play a game, and sure, it would be realistic if you only had a small part to play in a greater story, but the important question is, would it be fun? Being assigned a few simple tasks while other characters you have no control over are off doing other things would be incredably boring. Its why in pretty much every game you play, your character is the one who gets to do most of the work, because players need to be doing something for it to be fun. Besides, escapism is one major reason we enjoy fiction, for most of us, we really don't get to do anything extremely big. We go about every day lives, do jobs like working in an office or construction work, most of us won't have a chance to do anything that will get our names remembered in history, So it's hardly a surprise that writers often make their heroes larger than life.

For reasons I already said, I do in fact like being the hero, reading about people doing epic things is part of the appeal of high fantasy novels, and playing as the person doing epic things is what I like to do in fantasy games. If I wanted to be just a normal person going about every day life, I would play the Sims, when I play the Elder Scrolls, I want to explore ancient ruins and fight monsters, I want to rise up to the highest ranks of whatever faction I decide to join, and I want to save the world from whatever threat Bethesda came up with this time (Okay, sometimes I actually don't, but if that's the case, I ignore the main quest, simple as that. But I still want the option to be there.) And I want to do all these things myself, I want to be at the center of my own great story, not stand aside and watch others go through there's.

Besides, if my character isn't the central character in the story, why should it focus on that character? Sure, some stories are told from the perspective of someone other than the real hero, but still, that person is generally a companion to do the hero, in short, you still get to see the work of the real central character, just through someone else's eyes.



You could in Morrowind and Oblivion too, granted, the quest wouldn't go away in the sense that it would still exist in your journal, but you could completely ignore it and do other things. If you don't want to report to Caius, you can just drop the message in some muck pool and forget about. Just because you hear the call doesn't mean you have to answer it.

Why would the hero go and collect crap? Isn't that for someone beneth him, while he prepares and fight the big boss that actually matters?

I usually play the hero type of character, but if there's gold in it, I won't regret killing an entire family.

^^ Hi, Martin never thought COC to be hero beneath him -_- . Even at the very end he wasn't sure what to do until you ask him "Can we not use the amulet". But I prefer this ending over the self-sacrafice for my hero . Long live Martin and Shon Been of course.

And really after Dragon Age I don't think that I stand another epic story .

That's how you'd expect it to work, but in games it generally doesn't work that way, because it wouldn't make for a very satisfying game experience if it was someone else doing everything and you just had to sit around until whoever does all the work is done with all the fetch quests so you can go to the final challenge.

In short, the Nerevarine is an example of the usual video game hero, the Nerevarine is the chosen one who has to defeat the antagonist, but still ends up doing all the work necessary to get there too, Martin is what you get when the designers try to make someone other than the player character the hero. You still do most of the work but the real hero has some kind of important task he has to fulfill and takes all the credit because of that.



He may not have called the player character beneath him, but it certainly felt like you were. And while I agree that having Martin do a heroic sacrifice is better than me doing it, having Martin die at the end made the entire main quest seem entirely pointless. Sure, you did save the world in the proccess, but the purpose you set out for was to find Martin so that he could assume the Septim throne, and at the end, the throne is still left empty, there's just no more heir to fill it now. But that's a topic for a completely different discussion.

I'm tired of being influenced into going on a world changing quest. I'd rather see the main character do something important, but not related to what the higher upps do. Maybe save people, but not the whole world. Surviaval is also a pretty interesting quest.

In Morrowind, being forced into it was kind of part of the story. The whole manipulation by Azura and the fate thing. Therefore, it has a much simpler question of you being fated for greatness like it or not. Oblivion is supposedly fate, but not enough really goes into explaining why there is a fated sidekick.

I actually don't like Morrowind's MQ... Long, tedious, and no reminders or sense of compulsion to do it.

TES Arena: I liked it. I was a minor player in the Imperial Court. Suddenly, the Big Bad sealed my Emperor in an extra-dimensional can, robbed me of my position, and threw me in the dungeon to die. And, I was the only one able to be contacted by the ghost who knew what happened. No matter who I am, whether a noble hero with a Savior Complex or a scheming, greedy bastard, I have a motive to kill Tharn and restore the true emperor. And to kill Tharn, I need weapons. Lots of weapons. Including broken magic stick.

TES II Daggerfall: Not as strong a compulsion, but I am the Emperor's friend, and he asked me to help him. Apparently, though I'm not a famous player, its implied I have the resources and record to show I have the ability to handle the problem. Fortunately, the vast Imp-Ex network keeps me on-task, in case ADD sets in and makes me forget what I'm supposed to be doing while I marvel at the lost fortresses deep under High Rock and Hammerfell.

TES III Morrowind: Hi, I get off a boat and am told to go report to Caius Cosades. Once I step out of the door, I'm greeted by Seyda Neen's colorful population, who make it too easy to forget what I was doing, and so the main quest never progresses even if my character would have had an interest in Saving Morrowind... Nobody told him what was going on, and his message was forgotten or destroyed in a bog, or buried deep in his journal alongside finding brigands for distressed damsels, kissing highwaymen, leading confused clerics to remote shrines, giving rings to annoying bosmer, taking rings and cash from said annoying bosmer, freeing a few slaves from a cave beside Seyda Neen, finding dead taxcollectors, killing tax-collector killers, etc... And if I do remember the Main Quest by the time I reach Balmora, I'm given a few coins and he tells me to go find other things to bury my to-do list in, from gathering mushrooms, bowls and flowers for magical kitties, killing cave rats for Closet Cultists, stealing diamonds for sneaky kitties, asking for keys from angry black guys, stealing soulgems from inattentive bosmer on while helping magical kitties, and getting sent far and wide for all sorts of things... MQ is stifled. At least I can freely mod it, but I never get very far with my quirk characters.

TES IV Oblivion: Nice quest, excellent story, I'm a hero, but I'm not doing it alone (You get lots of help and assistance, even those you'd rather not deal with)... Suffers from horrible pacing. Either I can get my ass handed to me or feel underwhelmed by the scope doing it with the implied sense of urgency, or I can shatter my immersion to try to make it feel suitably epic and large-scale... and mod it so the enemy still uses Combined Arms instead of Cheesy full-on high-level heavy-hitters.

So yes, I do like being the hero...

Not really, no. I'd rather play a fairly significant role, but not go out and single-handedly do everything needed for Martin to stop the daedric invasion. For gameplay purposes, I'd rather be an anonymous, mysterious character who contributes to the grand effort for his own reasons, which may or may not involve the greater good.

Personally, I prefer playing 'Magnificent Bastard' characters who play everything right around a prickle situation. It's sort of like Dragon Age. You aren't really the one and only hero. There are a lot of groups trying to do what they think is right and you're just a small fraction of them. Some people don't trust you, some don't like you, and others want to kill you. You've got to watch each move you make to make sure that you gain as many allies as possible. In Oblivion it's pretty much one way. Everyone wants the daedra gone and everyone sees Martin and you as the heroes to do it.

But that is really a lack of political interaction. The counts should have opposed Martin at every turn, with you having to do favors for most of them, and perhaps getting rid of others. Ocato should have been very suspicious of the supposed heir to the throne. Why should he trust some has-been daedric worshiper turned priest? Yeah, THAT sounds safe to rule an empire...right?

And you could dump the package to Caius Cosades and do whatever you wanted in MW, without doing the MQ.

To be fair, when Oblivion gates start appearing outside your own city and Daedra come out to attack everyone they see, it's pretty obvious that this is a threat to you too. Though it wouldn't necessarily be so obvious that Martin and his lackey are the ones who have to stop it. Granted, you did have to help the counts before they would send aid to Bruma, but it seems not so much that they have any doubts that it's the right thing to do as that they can't spare any soldiers until the Oblivion gates outside their cities are closed.

Morrowind did have a bit of a stronger element of this than Oblivion, some groups (particularly the temple.) were less than pleased to find out that you were trying to fulfill the Nerevarine prophecies at a certain point, and the Ashlanders weren't too quick to accept the notion of an Outlander Nerevarine, there was that part with going around to get the Great Houses to name you Hortator and the Ashlander tribes to call you Nerevarine, of course, why you need to do this is kind of unclear, considering that they don't help you when it's time to confront Dagoth Ur anyway, the prophecy says so, I guess. Aside from that it seems like there's no reason you shouldn't be able to just skip that part.

Still, in Dragon Age, even though other people were certainly doing their own things, and many weren't on your side, you still got plenty of being a hero on your part, sure, there were those who oppose you, but every hero needs some sort of opposition, it's just a question of where it comes from.

I just realized one thing we've missed. It's not that the game follows someone who happens to be a hero, the game follows someone because they are the hero. Everyone had roughly the saqme chance to be the hero, but the game simply follows the one out of the masses who actually did.

Still no idea on why there's a fated sidekick, but still.

Being the hero is good enough for me, as long as it is a choice. Sometimes, I just want to role play as a paladin type character who does only good. However, being the hero isn't fun all the time. Eventually, you want to do things differently, or want to become a more mysterious, shady, and evil character. While I do like being the hero, being other things is just as fun.

I like being an anonymous soldier, hence why i have mods that allow me to play as a Legionary serving in a fort just south of the IC as part of the Akatosh Legion.

That makes a lot of sense in the grand scheme of things.

You didn't become a hero, you WERE the hero, no matter what. From the very beginning when the Emperor himself tells you that the stars fated this and that he trusts you totally. You didn't have a say in it, nor did circumstance force you to be the hero. You were ALWAYS the hero, even before the event that would cause the whole damn problem in the first place. All because the stars said so, eh?

I'm certain he was more than skillful enough to have collected all of those errand materials himself, but he being a true Hero had a much bigger job to do. If you doubt his skills or fighting abilities just check out his birthsign from the CS and the equipment he uses. He's very much godlike especially at the Battle of Bruma, but his intellect was needed at Cloud Ruler Temple.

To be honest, if I wrote the story of TESV, whithout thinking about previous TES games at all, except from it being a fantasy RPG, and having the lore correct, it would not be a hero-story. It would be a political story, or it would seem to, the main character would be a totally normal, down to earth character with a few skills that can help. The story would be about him/her joining up with a band of people, story aside, it would be about the MC(not the leader, or allround-mission-doer, just a member of the team) and these people getting up into something big, and the plot would follow them on their way to make a difference, not as the well known, big heroes, saving the day with their super strength, and power fron prophecies.(Yes, this sounds cheesy, at least to me, but it isn't a story, just an idea of what the story should be like)
But because that doesn't seem to fit with TES, as many would want to have their character a demigod with artifacts as equipment, slaying gods and saving the day. It would be out of tact, but I never understood why anything about fantasy has to be so archetypically epic, just to fail at it because it isn't epic, only big and bloated.

Well, for me, it depends on what my character is. For example, if I am playing a low begger, heck no I don't (and probally can't) save the world. But, if I am some ambitous guy, then proablly I will like it. As I said, depends on my character.

It depends on how you roleplay different charaters my main charater is a hero...so he seems.Behind your back he will rob you extort your money launder it anything to make another million gold my main character is greedy you see.

Personally, I think beth intended the player to be his hero-confidant, a person of action who could mold Martin Septim into the man he needed to be. Its quite clear at the beginning of the game that Martin isn't ready for his destiny, and I think beth wanted the player to be the one who made him ready. Though it seems they failed on that part.

To point to dragon age, Dragon age did this well, but beth seems to have dropped the ball.

i like being a hero. a big hero. but i dont like being the hero. bethesda is just too lazy to make more than one hero, it seems :shakehead:

p.s. i like how Caius Cosades says in the beggining how you need to make yourself known by either
1) joining a faction
2) becoming a freelance adventurer
OR even becoming a villain. he didnt care. and hes supposed to be the good guy. there really wasnt a lot of pressure on you in MW's main quest. oblivions was like being put in an airlock.

Excuse me?? :rofl: I think that's the first time in history anyone's called it that:D