I like Skyrim, its simple. Oblivion made me want to smash the screen all the time. Of course I always used unlock spells too instead of lockpicks.

That's exactly how it SHOULDN'T be.

Just because I'm not good enough at something doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to try.

Putting in game limitations on something, telling you you can't do something, is not RPG. It's hand holding at it's absolute worst. Isn't that what people gripe about around here???

Grew up on D&D back in the 80's, so I am all for dice rolling TBH. The thing is if my character has a high Lock-Picking skill there should be no way that ME, I, In Real Life, should be able to screw that up. Yet in Skyrim not only can I screw it up but like I said earlier my near skill-less warrior can open Master Locks like a pro if I am Personally good at it.

I like to think that the ability to cast spells is something someone spends a lifetime learning. It's not a side hobby. Same with being able to open Master locks or become proficient with a melee weapon. For this same reason I never let my characters add perks to more than one of the three crafting skills. Those are things that someone spends a lifetime learning, probably with the teaching starting from the characters parents when they were a child. I hate any arguement that says all characters should by default be the Jack Master of all Trades.

It's not a matter of a class telling you what you can or can not do, it is a matter of a class being what you are and I just don't believe that it's a very viable role-play to pretend that your character is the master of every skill in the game.

Morrowind didn't really have a lock-pick system, Oblivion's was horribly easy so I like skyrim's the best.

Fixed.

It's not a matter of mastering all skills, it's a matter of being able to decide for myself what my character would do and master in, not some random guy in a studio somewhere telling me what I can and cannot master in. "Classes" take away player freedom, simple as that.

And while I understand, and to a level, agree with the "RPG = character skill over player skill" argument, there is a line. At some point, if it's ALL character skill, and no player input should count, why are you even playing a game at all? At some point, it becomes a movie. And if player input is shunned so much, it's not even an interactive movie.

Because even the most extreme of extreme roleplays are - guess what? - player input.

The PLAYER is the one controlling the character, and making the choices. I don't care how many people talk as if their character is a real life person, talking about how "we travel together, she makes the choices, I'm just there for the ride", the fact of the matter is, the PLAYER is making those choices.

It is player input if you walk left or right. It is player input if you walk or run. It is player input if you enter that dungeon or pass it by. It is player input if you accept that quest or not.

Even in dice roll RPG's, it is player input to choose an action over another.

It is a video game. Player input exists. It has to. And it doesn't make it any less RPG because player input helps determine an outcome instead of a dice roll.

Dice rolls are an awful mechanic. Outdated. The video game world is so much better for moving past them. Anything that takes control out of the player's hand is not a good mechanic.

Even professionals make mistakes. Even the skill-less can strike lucky.

I dunno, I'd like to think I have a reasonable understanding of how lockpicking works in Skyrim and it takes me dozens of lockpicks to pry open a master lock unless I get lucky. Lockpicks break at the slightest bit of pressure and the area for successful master lock picking (without associated perks) is 1-1 precise. I'd even go so far to say that player skill doesn't even weigh that much into it (not nearly as much as people are suggesting) as the system isn't particularly difficult to work out. Luck and most importantly patience factor in more.

Personally I don't have the patience to spend the time (and lockpicks) it takes to get them open. I've never encountered a chest with contents that was worth the trouble without perks.

Player choices yes, as that defines a good RPG. Player skills no, as that defines an Action game.

The main choices made in a real RPG are those made before the game starts. In D&D it would take me several days to determine my characters race, class, assign attributes, skills, write up a details background, etc. It is all those choices before the game starts that determine what many of my options are as choices once the game starts. Just starting out with a blank slate and becoming anything you want just takes away half the role-playing in my opinion.

I like Skyrim's system just fine.

Yes, the higher the skill, the easier the lock becomes to pick. At a novice level, Master locks will break faster because the "space" of the lock is very narrow, whereas a master of the skill will have a higher range of the "space" in the lock.

The "sweet spot" people look for, generally at 10 and 2, is reduced on a Master lock.

In addition, the game punishes players at lower levels by breaking the pick, even if the spot is hit dead on. In other words: if you're a low level trying to pick a Master lock, you will lose picks no matter what.

While I am not supportive of "dice roll". I think one could look at the pickpocket mechanic. Lockpicking could have been done similar. The skill directly relates to the success % . That way it eliminates the stupid mimigame and with a low skill has a chance to break a lickpick. It is all on the character and removes the player skill form the equation.

See now that you've said that I can so totally see a pick-pocket mini game showing a large hand going into a pocket and clicking a button to grab an item. Kind of like those big claw games in stores with the stuffed animals in them. The horror.

http://canobie.swinglonga.com/images.20050429/big.claw.game.jpeg

Not me. I've said it before, and I'll say it again - if someone needs numbers in order to roleplay, they are doing it wrong.

The blank slate approach in Skyrim has not hindered my roleplaying ability in the least bit. It has not hindered my ability to write up detailed backgrounds, it has not hindered the need to think through my character's race and "class" - I.E. important skills and perks. All of that is still just as prevalent in Skyrim as it ever was in Morrowind or Oblivion. That has not been taken away.

And you talk about the difference between player choice and player skill, but it still comes down to the same different. You don't want player skill effecting the outcome and overriding character skill, but choice is the same thing. If I'm playing Morrowind, and have a high Intelligence character, but I have no idea how to play the game and am running around like a mindless idiot, that is effectively my player skill overriding my character skill. Skill in this regard is my intelligence and my mind as a person. Player choice and player skill are the same thing. They are player input that are dependent on the person on the keyboard or controller. Because in the end, no matter how much we roleplay, the character is a fictional, virtual avatar of us in a pixelated fantasy world. They are not real and never will be, not matter how strong our sense of "pretend" is.

You liked the tumblers in Oblivion better? Skyrims system isn't perfect but it's 100x better then Oblivions...the only good thing about Oblivions locks was the Open spell

That's funny...

Now, as far as a pickpocket mimigame, you reminded me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aTbAHKtYQk. I am due for another playthrough...lol

I kind of like Skyrim's lockpicking system but I would rather have the skill give you experience when you pick a lock to a door that had already been picked, those things are reset every so often (with a different success position so I assume it is a new lock) and I would not mind breaking into Warmaiden's again and somehow have it not being considered trespassing AT TWO IN THE MORNING IN GAME!

I have role-played many characters in Skyrim and written detailed backgrounds (check sig) but it's only because I was able to pretend that a lot of things were not possible in Skyrim. Since I can pretend, I guess we both win.

Putting your hand into and through rings of snakes. Now that is an interesting mini-game.

I didn't know the locks reset after a while, that's interesting.