Matching the Imperial Legion? They are the Imperial Legion. They are the ones who supplied the taxes, sold the supplies, created the armor and weapons. They rule over the people who make the Legion's ranks and built the temples and cities where they live and worship. They are the leaders of the population of the continent, and you can't simply oust them in favor in someone else. It wouldn't work.

Also, the wealth of rulers is measured in land and cities. How exactly would Numidium remove these without destroying entire provinces at a time? I don't understand what you had in mind, stomping on a pile of treasure chests, perhaps?

The Legion was loyal to Tiber Septim. Even the renegade Talos Cult worshipped him. Royal families may have some merit, but given that there was no mention that there was any repercussion aside from the Underking destroying Numidium. And killing them off certainly wouldn't have eliminated such problems either.

I was thinking along the lines of destroying their property, stomping their fields, as a general rule destroying their assets.

If the President contracted Russia to murder the governors of every state in the nation and bombed their summer homes, who would the Army side with? And I think the U.S. Army is a tad more stable and loyal than the feudal forces of a war-torn continent in chaos. But this example makes me wince, so let's continue.

Stomping on their fields? I don't really think that does much towards replacing a royal family. Because whether they were killed or merely had their vegetable gardens destroyed, they were replaced, and it is unlikely that the replacements could have retained their thrones if the original rulers were still kicking around, angry as hell, enjoying the support of the people and the law besides.

The reason there was no mention of repercussions is why I think it never happened, or at least not on a grand scale.

Killing noble families would cause unrest, but only peasant survivors would be there to object. No comparison to the justified ire of the disenfranchised nobles themselves. You cannot fight for your rights if you are dead.


And this line is pure gold. I'll let you figure out why.

Yet without their stuff, royal families are nearly powerless. There's a lot more peasants than royalty. And if they were simply killed off, their followers would seize their wealth for themselves, and likely hold a grudge against Tiber Septim.

And as I said, if he wanted to kill them off, he'd hire assassins to do it instead of sending a giant stompy robot. It would be a much more effective and discreet solution.

"Their stuff."

You haven't told me what "their stuff" is yet. So no dice.

And obviously.

Obviously.

Assassins can't infallibly murder hundreds of the most important, well-protected people in existence. :poke:

Not even an army of Altair clones with James Bond and the entire Matrix crew spewing bullets out of uzis with fire damage enchants.

Yet assassins ended both the Septim and Reman dynasties flawlessly, at least with the exception of Martin Septim. And a stompy robot can't track down and destroy everyone.

As for their stuff, I was referring to their property, their wealth, etc.

How exactly would assassins be better att "tracking down and destroying everyone"?

I don't really think placing limits on Numidium's abilities is a very safe argument. Because you know zilch about it's capabilities.

However, one thing I know for a fact it cannot do is reach into the inventories of NPCs with invisible hands and remove their gold pieces, thus causing them to be deposed and exiled. So really, you're going to have to tell me how it could have maybe possibly onceinabluemoon have happened if I'm to take that argument seriously.

And the assassin comment is irrelevant. Yes, they could have killed a king or two, but it wasn't two kings. The text suggests that it was dozens. And this is why the I believe the text to be inaccurate or fabricated. It's far-fetched. Maybe it happened the way I'm proposing, but I doubt it. And I'm pretty sure it didn't happen your way.

Nobles don't carry their wealth on them. They keep their wealth in their mansions and castles. Destroy their property and their wealth is pretty much gone. And even if Numidium could kill anyone whom you specified, you'd have to know every member of that family to destroy them. Some would inavertably survive. The Mythic Dawn Assassins had better success than the Siege Crawler and the daedra that sacked Kvatch to get to Martin. And if Numidium could do anything, it wouldn't have gotten destroyed.

Not necessarily. When there were rumblings about a new emperor to unite Tamriel, Wulfharth was convinced it was him; it wasn't. Then there's this bit about needing a power source for the Numidium; once again, it doesn't necessarily need to be Wulfharth. I think perhaps Zurin was to Wulfharth what Vivec was to Mephala... or something like that. Simply put, Zurin was part of the Enatiomorph just as Hjalti was part of it. Both were born mortal men, but both became part of the divine pageant, and so perhaps Zurin actually displaced Wulfharth in the entity known as the Underking.

Getting back on track and away from Crimson Paladin's "all Cyrodilic heroes aren't as bad as you think you are" spiel, yes, pre-Arcturian-Heresy Underking was angry because he gave his soul to a tyrant. Coincidentally post-Arcturian-Heresy Underking was also angry because his soul was taken by a tyrant, although this version is much more about getting some revenge before he can have a rest.

...
Now tell me with a straight face that you believe that it happened just like that, I'll tell you that you have all the judgment of a naked mole rat, and we can go about our business.

One wonders how a weapon that "causes the planets to orbit it and sing world-refusals" turned loose on neutral royal families isn't anything but overkill. I certainly don't think it's a matter of "excuse me sir, this giant robot is here to reposssess your house and thereby somehow thwart any political ambitions you might harbour in the future." Because, you know, that's silly. It also wrongly assumes nobility equates to rich, but that isn't particularly surprising considering the sort of ideals we're fed both in fantasy and in real life.

How about you tell me how assassins wouldn't be a better solution for simply eliminating royal families, and I'll tell you to stop flaming me just because like you, I just won't quit. I'm sick of people flaming me just because we don't see eye-to-eye; it's immature. And for that, we'll never agree on this, due to both our unwillingness to concede to the other and the lack of information from that time period, but that doesn't make you right and me wrong. Consequently, it doesn't make me right and you wrong either.


We don't know the full extent of Numidium's powers and whether or not it was simply an exaggeration. Yes it is overkill (if, at least, he actually meant to kill them off, which I do not personally believe), if you just wanted to get rid of them, simply pay the Dark Brotherhood.

They can do the same with you.

It was overkill, but it worked. Numidium was used to reduce the number of kingdoms in the Iliac Bay.

I like this theory.

But Tiber using the Numidium on the neutral families is a nasty thing to do no matter what. And we have to remember that the Numidium does not use normal means to reach the end it's told to do, so we don't know what crushed means.

And a poor noble is still powerful. That is because in feudal systems, the nobility serve as symbols of power. If you want an example of what happens when you take away the nobles' wealth, look what happened with the samurai in Japan. The didn't really lose power, and were almost more dangerous to the government than they were when they had land.

And on topic, Zurin would be mad when a weapon he basically created (made it functional at least) was not only used against a foreign enemy that has a different culture, but also against your own people. For example, Americans weren't exactly upset when the A-bombs went off in Japan, but think of how they would react if Truman had set one of in San Francisco because he thought there were to many Japanese people there without a strong enough allegiance to him.

Given that Tiber Septim had established an empire, the nobility had become less important. With the advent of professional armies, the samurai's western equivalent declined in use. Although the nobles' power would have only increased over the last few centuries, given that there was no unified government.

Also, he had just brought Tamriel out of a period of constant conflict; the dust was still settling, and this was the first time in centuries that other kingdoms were considered part of the Empire. It takes some getting used to on both parts.

But I'm sticking my neck here when I say that it is possible that Tiber Septim's actions were to ensure that only those that could wear the Amulet of Kings (AKA his relatives) would remain on the Empire's throne, preventing certain doom bliviongate: . Sure, Dagon hadn't invaded in the recent timespace, but he still may have been recuperating from the butt-kicking handed to him by Almalexia and Sotha Sil (yeah, I know it's a long time, but hey, what other explanation is there?).

Hey wait a minute, I feel deja vu coming on.

And yes, you have proven that you can take advantage of this wishy-washy fantasy universe of uncertainty to prevent the application of any logical argument. But instead of hiding behind that, perhaps rebut me a time or two, and I won't have to "flame" because there will actually be something to post about.

But as proven, assassins CAN murder hundreds of the most important, well-protected people in TES existence. Provided you have enough money. The Dark Brotherhood has been doing it since the beginning. And the Mythic Dawn has further shown the effectiveness of assassins. And while they can be hired to come after you, they're a business and can be bought; that's why the Hlaalu nobles didn't go to them when they wanted to get rid of Helseth. In addition, if someone else got the Mantella, they'd control Numidium. And we don't know how many people he sent Numidium after. And the Arcturian Heresy, while it is a questionable source, does say that Numidium wasn't exactly the god that either Tiber Septim or even the Dwemer hoped for.

And we're arguing about the definition of one word, which saxbass2 has pointed out that we don't know what it meant in that context for sure.

And you never have to flame anyone; it's your choice whether to do so or not.

EDIT: Coding fix

If you actually think it's possible, then no amount of pathetic, flimsy, gameplay-ridden anecdotal evidence is going to dissuade you.
And we're at the impasse at last.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nacktmull.jpg

It's not like your judgement abilities are any better than mine. Or worse, for that matter. Just different.

On-topic, the Morrowind intro did basically say that Zurin is the Underking.

Any reason why Zurin said the famous quote?

Is it in any books? Or is just a teaser quote like at the beginning of every Dune chapter?

I don't recall seeing it in any of the books. It may have been in Daggerfall, but not having played it, I wouldn't know. I think it's probably one of those teaser quotes.

Eh, I doubt it's in a book; why not just quote the book?

It's not in a book. But Zurin Arctus is important enough in Tamrielic history and mythos to get a stand-alone quote. Plus, he was highly intellegent and generally knew what was going on.