The BoS weren't really shut away, during Lyons time on the West they were roaming the wastes, many times taking technology form "ignorant wasters" by force. Also, yes, Veronica is an absolutely crappy character, the main reason why people say she's awesome is becase she's the quirky girl stereotype and also has Felicia Day as a voice actress.
Also, stuff being able to be absolute black and white is really up to debate. I'm treading carefully here, but in Hitler's mind he was good, he considered his methods perfectly fine and the best for his people in the long term. Was he right? Nope. But at those times looking at how he pulled his country out of financial [censored] - I know that his methods were rather questionable, to put it mildly, but not like the public knew much about that - many people believed in him, even after he started committing his atrocities. On grand situations like that you can't necessarily fit good vs evil and say that's basically what it was. (On smaller ones you can, like it's obvious that Ted Bundy killed out of sport.)
The Enclave actually felt bad that they had to release the Curling virus but they seriously thought that that was the best hope for humanity. They were still mostly black though, I agree on that one. The Master is a whole lot different though, I won't even get into explaining him, but I did post in the Fallout Speculation Thread 95 about the moral greyness of how you deal with him. But overall I would agree that only NV went really hard on the gray and grey stuff, but it was present in the older games, even in F2 with some of the side quests.

1. Right, but it was a thing that was barely mentioned. In Skyrim they're suddenly all about that, but that's a debate for another time.
2. Something more into detail. Hints about the Thalmor's intentions. Anything more in-depth.
3. I meant in a "giving the finger" kind of way.
4. You can't, but not everything the character does has to be canon, they can just say that that didn't happen, the canon Dragonborn didn't kill them, it was done a whole lot of times in the Fallout franchise.

edit:
It's a bit different having two people's point of view who were directly involved in it and hide away from the Thalmor so they can tell you a version that probably is not affected by fear of the Thalmor authorities.

I still think it's strange that suddenly history which barely anyone in the Blades actually cared about became important. But I'm not gonna get into my reasons in-depth.

Funny enough, most people I know liked Veronica becuase she was the only BoS member in New vegas that actually showed any semblance of a reasonable thought, and the only character, besides maybe Marcus, that had any semblance of self-wareness, and the only memebr of the BoS that felt like a REAL person, and not some robot programed with only one mindset.

One of the biggest problems I have with Obsidian's handeling of Fallout's story is thier implication that no one, can, EVER, realise a mistake and not repeat it. I get that war, war never changes, but that doesn't prevent memebrs of the BoS from realizing that the path they are on is death. Obsidian apparently wants every faction to have th exact same ideals they have had in every past game, forever, thier writing style is pure stagnation.

The CW BoS was a breath of fresh air, becuase they were one of the few people in the game that actually should that people in the fallout unvierse existed beyond a "single minded never can change ever" attiude, and could do smething DIFFRENT.
1. They explain why they are all about that in Skyrim, becuase the Dragons are coming back. The switch is explined by the game's very story. Delphine herself even tells you at one point "for years we lacked a purpose, but now that we found you, and the Dragons have returned, we have found one."
2. No one knows the Thalmor's intentions, thats the point, and The Blades were BEAT by The Thalmor at The Blades own game of espionage. It wouldn't make sense for either of them to know anything.
3. that just seems kinda childish.
4. Bethesda would never let you do something that couldn't be considered canon, this isn't Fallout were they lie to you, and pretend to give you chices, only to have the next game kick you in the balls and tell you that you made the "wrong" choice.
5. So insted you want the story from two people who have lived in fear of The Thalmor for 30 years? They would stil have the same fear bias everyone else does.
6. Well given that the Dragon's return was rather sudden, the sudden importance of the Blade's ancient history is justified.

I dont mean to sound rude, which I know saing that always make it seem rude, but it really seems like you are failing to connect the Main quest of the game together with the Blades' actions. Almost every point you made here has been explained in the game itself.

So instead of actually having a choice, you'd rather be forced to take the exact same path all the time? They don't lie to you in Fallout, you do have choices, and you get to see their result in the ending slides but those choices might not be the ones that turn out to be canon. The Bethesda way you don't play your Dragonborn you play the character Bethesda orders you to play out of cowardice of pissing people like you off who can't bear the thought that their actions in the game might not be canon. Sorry if I sound too harsh, but that's the truth. Unfortunately for you I guess, I'm almost certain Bethesda will start to set canon endings in TES too. The majority on the forums would still like to have choices and the extended userbase, the people who think the next TES game will be called Skyrim 2 don't give two [censored] about what gets to be canon or not, they only play(ed) because it is(was) the new kewl thing.

You can have choice without it having to change somehing so large that it affects the canon of the next game in such a way that they have to declare it non-canon.
-Chosing to side with, or kill, the forsworn leader Maddanoch
-Destroying, or joining the DB
-All the Daedric quests that give you a choice between killing someone, or getting an artifact.
Just to name a few.

Even your choice in the civil war, and the guilds you join, or dont join, can be easily explined through multiple various events. Your statement that you have to play the game the same way all the time is 100% false.


Also, giving players "choices" only to delcare those choices non-canon, does make those choices lies, because you are told you made the "wrong" one if you didnt pick the one they did.

I thought the reason why the blades went ape[censored] over the dragons was because their ancient oath always had them looking for the dragonborn when dragons come back. The dragons come back, they find the dragonborn, and they high on the experience of being THE blade members who was part of fulfilling their ancient prophecys. Makes since of the ultimatum when their oath is complete when they help u and give u the intel u need to defeat alduin. Like theres no reason to continue being bootlickers now if u aint playing the same g
ame as them.

As car as the bos, I can understand why they never really change yheir values. Their isolationists and pretty much stay away from people on their grand scheme of finding forbidden tech. If u noticed, the bos who actually change their views are the ones who have pronged contact with the outside world. Veronica after being exposed to the outside world for long periods of time being the bos scout and grocery girl and started changing her views after being exposed. Lyons and hia group for the most part with the eception of the outkasts were exposed to peoples tradegys in the pitt and the capital wasteland. When those people were no longer isolated but actually mingled with the outside world, their views changed. But the bos again are isolationists so a majority are not exposed to the outside world so their views never have a concret reason to change. Take Africa for example. There are many countrys and people that are exposed to the outside world and their views and lifestyles have changed, BUT there are still tribes that isolate themselves from thee outside world and never change their culture because they are constantly reinforced by the same ideals over and over again without the chance for a different ideal or way of life.

Funnily enough the first two instances you mentioned are both major choices that are bound to have a lasting effect on the TES universe.
Yes, the Civil War can be explained by yet another Dragonbreak, but the difference here is that this Dragonbreak will be just cowardly trying to pander to everyone, not something like the Warp in the West that was ultimately good for the franchise in some ways. Of course I ain't protecting the Warp in the West, that was cowardice too, Todd Howard or someone admitted it.

And no it doesn't make those choices lies, you still get to see what will happen with the side you chose, and there is a chance that the ending you chose will be declared canon. For instance I chose House in NV, there is a chance that that ending will get to be canon, but not much. Obsidian confessed that they like Good Guy Indy the best, Bethesda would probably either go with Obsidian's choice or NCR. Now, I'm not saying that there always has to be a canon ending, for a game like NV, if the storyline is not continued or expanded upon, there should not be a canon ending. But if there is a sequel in some way then I'd rather be disappointed that my choice didn't make it into canon than see some totally facepalm worthy [censored] like everyone gets to hold Hoover Dam.

Actually they aren't
-The Forsworn can just be described in future games as "having their leaders killed". Does that mean they were killed in jail? or killed out in their camps? Either way, thier leaders are dead, be it by you in the jail, or someone else after they escape, it matters not, and since the Forsowrn are losing anyways, and don't bother any area but The Reach, they wont be mentioned or have any real impact on the future games.

-When destroying the DB neither Cicero, Babette, or the Night Mother, are present, and since the DB gets raided during the DB questline anyways, and presumed destroyed, Bethesda can say the DB was "supposedly" killed, and at the same time still have them kill the Emperor, and the sotyr fits both what happens when you join them, or what happens if you destroy them.

The only thing I have seen discussed about the Dragonbreak is Bethesda admitting that making multiple endings to daggerfall was a dumb move, and that the dragonbreak was a great ay to solve it. Also, how in hell is it pandering or cowardly?

But what you see is false, its fake, its not-canon, it matters to nothing in the series, it is a lie.

I suspect Bethesda would make it to where after the battle of Hoover dam, they don't specify who won, all sides were so exhausted and spent, that their hold on the region collapsed, and then Bethesda writes whichever side they like the most recovers, and manages to take the area from the other weakened sides.

I don't really see how that would be facepalm worthy, it is logical.

That's facepalm worthy. How can you not see that that way the stuff you did matters even less? Also House and Indy would not be exhausted they have a robot army, so no, it's not logical.
So yeah, setting one of the pre-established endings canon makes your choices a lie, but not choosing from the pre-established endings and inventing some bs that trivializes everything you did does not make it a lie, in fact it's kewl. Makes sense.

It doesn't matter less because what you did actually happened.

Having something happen means it matters more then something that didn't. Unless nonexistent things have somehow become more important then things that actually exist when I wasn't looking, having your ending actually happen, but get later cancelled out due to some big event, means it actually had more impact on the world then an event that never happened at all.

Also, Houses robot army had so many of his numbers destroyed, and his factory damage,d to where it become ineffectual.

It matters because at least it happened, even though it ended up having no effect on the story whatsoever and people never even mention it, well maybe vaguely for a split second. Nice.
By the way, are you a Bethesda writer in disguise? Not trying to offend, just curious.

You at least get to see what you picked mentioned in future games and are able to go "hey, I remember when I did that, its cool they mention my choice in future games".

And no, but I have to ask, are you an Obsidian writer in disguise? Not trying to offend, just curious.

But they don't mention nothing, nobody mentioned what you chose in Daggerfall. That's the whole point, they can't, because that would piss people like you off. It's called cowardice, having no balls whatsoever. But I'm too harsh, they are brave enough to retcon the [censored] out of Cyrodiil and on top of that write a story that butchers lore harder than Fallout: BoS.
And no, I'm not an Obsidian writer, I'm not near as talented enough to be one.

The book the warp in the west mentions what happened, and mentions the various endings that happened, and when you see the ending that you picked you can go, "thats the one I picked".

Since when did respecting your fans choices become cowardice?

Oblivion didn't butcher the lore at all, that's hyperbole from the most fanatical of lore people who expect the entire world to be exactly like MK writes it. Hell, the entire concept of the "towers" that held up the world had been in the game since Morrowind.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Morrowind:36_Lessons_of_Vivec,_Sermon_21



and it doesn't take much talent to be an Obsidian writer, all it takes is knowledge of how to write 4 factions that are all essentially the same level of stupid. New vegas is a constant stream of cliches, and overused tropes,m as is most Obsidian games. Not that Skyrim is any better, but OBsidians writing is far from top notch.

Oblivion did butcher lore, I advise you to read the books and think about the Dragonfires, you'll soon find it's a plot hole the size of an elephant.
Respecting your fans isn't cowardice, sacrificing the integrity of the story and removing consequences so that no one will be pissed is cowardice. Yes, you can go "that"s the one I picked" too bad it doesn't have any effect on the universe. You have to get it through your head: the Warp in the West and trivializing endings with some grand event in general is setting a canon ending that trumps all the others. The only difference is that the trivialising endings aren't in the game. What you are basically arguing for is setting endings canon that can't be accessed in the game, I'm arguing for endings that can be accessed.
Also, NV doesn't have near as many cliches as Skyrim or Oblivion. Of course if you hate Obsidian I won't change your opinion, I am aware of that, in fact I can kind of understand your hatred toward them.

There is no plot-hole in the Dragonfires. The world was held up by the 8 towers, and when they fell the barrier between Mundus and Oblivion weakened, the Dragonfires were the last straw. The barrier stood up in ages past without the dragonfires because the other towers had not fallen at that point.

Except the warp in the west didn't sacrifice the integrity of their story, nor does it remove them from being able to put consequences in their story, if anything it made it more interesting, and thus better.

Actually, the so called "trivialized endings" are in the game.
-Mannimacro did became a god, his eclipse of Arkay is even seen in Oblivion.
-The Orcs got their nation, as Orsiinium was made a full territory in its own right.
-The various kingdoms were merged into bigger ones, fewer in number, which are visible on the current map of Tamriel.
-Zurin Arctus got his heart and died, and is thus no longer present
-tiber Septim was able to conquer the reigion and bring it back under Imperial control, which is why it is part of the empire in Oblivion.
All of Daggerfall's endings are present in the current TES world, and Tamriel wouldn't be what it is today if even one of the endings didn't happen.


Also I don't hate Obsidian, I hate how people treat them like they are the sole masters of good writing left in the universe and everything has to be EXACTLY as they would do it or it svcks, its the same rose tinted glasses crap I hate with "elder scrolls fans" who think if the entire game series isn't like Morrowind it svcks.

Oblivion NPCs disagree with you.

I agree. Doesn't change the fact that it was done out of cowardice - as I've said the devs admitted this - and it should not be done again.

Except that I didn't want Mannimarco to become a god, I didn't want the orcs to have their nation, etc.. Also, did you know that the main character trying to control the Numidium probably became canon too? Gee, this is rather hard to explain, because I was so sure I played a knight in shining armor.
See? Such a thing is completely pointless because it's still a "kick in the balls" as you phrased it. It might have given some interesting stuff to the universe, but saying that such a thing pisses people off less is bs. There is literally no difference between setting an existing ending canon and just trivialising all that you did.

That doesn't mean it was actually implemented. They showed off some animations.

In fact their exclusion from Dragonborn kinda supports Todd's theory

I thought it wasn't confirmed that they are excluded from Dragonborn. Also, shouldn't it have been called "Spear animations" then?

You are aware that NPCs have the same limitations of knowledge that humans do IRL? NPCs in Oblivion told you what they did because that's all they knew.

It's like how people tell you Talos was from Atmora, when he wasn't, or that he is a Nord, when he most likely wasn't. They only tell you that because centuries of political propaganda, and historical revisionism, have made people only know lies. 99% of people have no idea the towers exist, or what they do, and for thousands of years The Empire has been spreading lies about the importance of the dragonfires, just like how ancient Egypt made its pharaohs as "living incarnations of the gods". If you really believe what NPcs tell you is true, then you are missing the point that NPCs, much like people IRL, are idiotic, and don't know the full story. NPCs are not some walking encyclopedias that only ever tell you facts, they are flawed people, with flawed Intel, and its up to the player the piece together the REAL story.

Its been like that since Morrowind, it was like that in Oblivion, and NPCs do it again Skyrim. You are NEVER told the real truth, that's part of the point of Elder Scroll's story telling.

Like when they tell you only the blood hear of the Septims can wear the amulet, when the dragon-blood has absolutely nothing to do with lineage. Its because all they know is the lies.

I would like to see the source on them admitting it was cowardly.

Being a Knight in Shining armor and controlling the numidium isn't hard to explain "you saw its destructive power and tired to control it so it wouldn't do any harm and failed.

As long as the people who wanted to come into power came into power, why would the other endings happening as well effect you?

and considering I have seen more complaints in forums over Fallout games, or other games that use ending slideshow cut-scenes invalidating choices then I have seen people complaining about Skyrim not invalidating your choices, people seem to disagree with your statement.

I could explain what's wrong with the Dragonfires and how the NPCs explain it, but people in the lore forum will do it better than me. Ask them to explain what's wrong with the Dragonfires and to ignore MK's attempts of making sense of it.

Todd Howard or someone other said that they didn't want to tell you that you played the game wrong. So they made playing the game pointless instead. Can't give you a proper source unfortunately, people on the forum said this to me.

Because my knight in shining armor didn't want Mannimarco to become a god. He didn't want any of the bay kings to take control of the Numidium. And he wasn't the kind of guy to take control of the Numidium either.

What exactly do you mean? Also, what choices can Skyrim invalidate? There were no big choices in Oblivion. The choices in Skyrim are yet to be invalidated, though even that is up to interpretation.

Ive lurked on the lore forums for years, and really, all of the "dragonfires don't make sense" BS is countered by the towers, all of it.

People say lots of things on these forums, many of which are false, ill believe it when I see it.

So your guy was a knight in shining armor, yet wouldn't try to stop a giant robot from destroying the world? seems contradictory.

And you know what, when saving a persons life, you don't know that saving their life would also cause them to die, but that's just the way the world works sometimes. You did what you set out to do, sometimes, side effects of that may not always be what you expected, but that's life. If anything it makes the choise more real insted of some idillic "nothing beyond exactly what you wanted happened".

That's exactly the point, all the choices you make in the game cant be invalidated, so you can never be wrong.

All the guild quests? yeah they got done, but I only did the ones I chose to do.
All the people I may have killed/not killed, or done the quests, or not done the quests for, could have had their lives turn out any number ways.

the fate of most people in the game is in your hands, depending on how you chose to play the game.

It's not, he's just an idiot who thinks that he is not deserving of such an honor. A lawful dumb type.
The point is that many characters will not want XY to happen and thus the player doesn't want it to happen. Meaning that it's still a kick in the balls.

It actually would be really easy in the next game to have a page when you start a new game asking some broad questions about the large decisions the player made in Skyrim, and have different sets of rumors/misc. dialogue that NPCs use based on that. Dragon Age 2, for instance, has premade sets of DAO data that you can choose if you don't have a save game to import.

Another example would be KotoR 2, where we were given the opportunity to tell an NPC in dialogue what six Revan was in KotoR 1. NPCs used that gender when speaking of Revan from then on.

Not the part I'd call butchering. Bad storytelling, yes. What you might call butchering was Cyrodiils presentation in Oblivion. It had nothing of the splendour imparted by the PGE's description. But that is ancient news now.



Actually I reckon the narrative problem that the multiple endings from Daggerfall created were solved in a rather clever way. The Dragonbreak is not an isolated event. It's not some developer hand waving. The phenomenon has become a genuine part of lore.

I'm afraid I neither have the desire nor the time to write out an elaborate illustration. But give http://www.imperial-library.info/content/where-were-you-when-dragon-broke a read. You should end up with allot more questions then you started. Try to answer those and you'll see what I mean. You'll have gone through a good amount of the existing work.

This is partly because between Daggerfall and Morrowind the lore of Tamriel had some serious work done. The background and history of Tamriel were seriously fleshed out, the metaphysics were put into place. As such Dragonbreaks could be easily put in.

----

Now to address another misconception. The Dragonbreak can not be used to retcon anything. The favourite way to do this in the lore has been to simply add more information and in such a way that the previous information is placed in a larger context.

The process is akin to first discovering that things fall down. From this an universal rule might be proposed that says: "Things fall down". Then we go to space. Things no longer fall down. Our proposed universal rule is now invalid. But we still know that things fall down sometimes. From this we can propose a new universal rule. Only to see it invalidated by realizing that our space ship is turning around the earth. At which point we'd formulate something like Newtons laws of motion and gravity.

The Dragonbreak is that information. You started out in a universe where you thought there could only be one timeline. You've now learned that this universe in specific conditions can support multiple. That is the retcon.

I'm sure there is a TVtropes page for this but I can't find it.