Modders are better at making a solid story and building from what Bethesda created. In Oblivion, about 70% of my favorite quests came from mods and my all time favorite quest mod, Heart of the Dead, was way better than what Bethesda made. However, mods are created for a pre-existing system.

For modders to make a better game than Bethesda, they'd need so many things...

1. An Elder Scrolls 6 Full Version
2. The Kit and Game Coding for the game
3. A million dollars to hire voice actors
4. LOTS Of DR. PEPPER
5. A time-frame of 3 years

And they'd need only the good modders. The creators of Midas Magic, Deadly Reflex, etc.

I don't think the modders could actually "make" the game. They're really good at modifying the finished product, but making a game from scratch, building it from the ground up? I don't think so.

The reason modders make such great mods is time. They have all the time in the world they want to build their mods. They don't have to adhere to arbitrary deadlines and whatnot.

Except cosmetic mods. Modders have proven they can prettify games very nicely within a very short amount of time.

Haha, true, I was reading the poll question instead of his actual post!

But as far as game development goes, I think they could handle it... especially if the cream of the crop were selected (if there is a limitation).

Marketing, distribution, etc. can be handled by outside companies. There's nothing wrong with that.

Game engines can also be licensed if there is a need. There's no point trying invent the wheel, which is what Bethesda seems to do every single time.

So yes, I still believe that there are people in the modding community can get the job done when it comes to the actual meat and potatoes of the subject, even if it would be beneficial to use outside help to do the rest.


Ps. I wouldn't mind having the perfect game on my computer... even if no one else ever knew it existed. Wouldn't make a bit of difference to me while I was playing ;-P

Bethesda have outsourced a lot of tools before, facegen stuff lipsynch, speed tree, and Skyrim uses a new havok engine for combat supposedly. Though actually i didn't notice it in game aside from a slight bit of autoaiming that they had called magnetism.

I would've been over the moon if they'd shelled out for Euphoria though, adding that to a game makes it 25% better.

I find this notion fascinating...I just don't see how it could ever happen. Perhaps I'll just need to agree to disagree? Again, I have the UTMOST respect (even admiration!) for modders, because what they do IS hard. However, being able to modify a game is different from being able to build a game from the ground up, even if you outsourced the game engine (which, as you pointed out, is certainly feasible). Let me flesh out the biggest problem I see that I mentioned in my first post.

Modding is all about freedom-- building what you want when you want. You finish when you want to finish, and you answer to no one. Want to add a hidden Halo 3 Sniper Rifle into the game? No problem-- mod away (extreme example, I know, but you get the point)! When you're building a game, though (or even a large mod!), you need a leader. This leader is, at some point in development, going to have to cut something. Let's say, for example, that the modder who created the popular Midas Magic was selected for this Modder Dream Team. He or she is happily modding away, adding AOE spells that cause pandemonium on a city-wide scale. He or she is loving it-- THIS is why he or she got into modding! The joy of watching the entire town of Whiterun duke it out...it's a beautiful thing. However, along comes the bi-weekly updates and design direction meeting (or whatever); his or her boss thinks some of the spells that Midas Magic has been adding are overpowered, and the project lead agrees. These things need to be cut. To the maker of Midas Magic, this is an outrage-- even painful! How dare they?! He or she has poured their heart and soul into this project, only to be told it was all for nothing? That it isn't good enough!? He or she decides to leave the project in disgust.

I've seen that scenario in very large mods for Morrowind and Oblivion. Again, modding is all about freedom-- collaboration is hard. In such a creative medium, being told "No, that doesn't fit our vision" is a tough pill to swallow. Particularly when everyone's vision of what makes a great game is different-- drastically different sometimes! Being told you have to forget about texturing your favorite weapon, Chrysamere, because it's being cut and get back to texturing boring stuff like cups and pots svcks. Throwing together talented people and telling them to work together is not a recipe for success, unfortunately.

But then again, what do I know? You could be right. Just because I don't think so doesn't make it so!



You selfish....!!! :wink_smile:

I don't see the problem.

Mega Man Legends 3 sure turned out great, didn't it?

Modders putting a game together from scratch face some serious organizational challenges, especially with something as comprehensive as a TES game. Art direction, music direction, streamlining resources so one group isn't waiting for another group to finish something (throwing more people at it faces diminishing returns), making sure everyone is working on the same code base.

So.. No, no chance.

Now, some modders or indie studios have created some pretty popular content. Counterstrike, Portal, gamer/dev type games like Titan Quest. But something on the scale of a TES game would be difficult.

Modders don't design games; they don't have the tools, the budget or even the know-how. Bethesda gives them everything and they tweak it. No, without bethesda the modders couldn't make anything even close to resembling a modern game.

Exactly! This is what I've been trying to say-- people don't seem to understand the organizational challenges facing a group like this, particularly if they have only been making mods by themselves.

so its quite an unfair situation you have here i suppose, there's no real way of estimating

TES should be for all platforms not just the PC.

This, basically. I don't get how "modders" and "devs" are two utterly different people. It's not difficult to see that if modders were hired to make a game, then those who were devs would probably then mod the hell out of it, and the cycle would complete itself. Game companies have hired modders before - even before Oscuro, there was an open call for submissions for a dungeon designer job some years back on these forums.

There was a guy who used to post on a forum I used who was a dev on Alpha Protocol. He gave a really interesting insight into how games were made: basically, at the design stage, you have a million amazing ideas that you want to put in. Then time runs out, budgets run out, etc. and you end up with about 3% of what you actually wanted to put into it. I don't see how it would be any different for Beth and Skyrim, and I don't see how it would be any different if it was different people doing it.

You don't see the problem.
But Bethesda does.

If they want to be a better company, they need support from all platforms.
This means more money, which means better games in the future.

lol Of course modders could do better. Check out Nehrim for example.

Could they make a game like Skyrim from the ground up?
Not a chance... unless you can find sever dozen modders who can work full time with no pay for several years.


Could they license all the tools (game engine, etc.) and make a great game?
Possibly... but that would likely cost too much money for a group of modders.


Could they use Creation Kit and all the pe-made Skyrim assets to make a unique and compelling game?
Absolutely! Would it be better than Skyrim though? Highly doubt it.

If "better games" means dumbed down then no.

It doesn't.

I didn't vote, but I think if modders got together as a large team, they could do what ever they want. Other games have came from mods, Red Orchestra 1/2 came out of being a mod for UT2004. The original Day of Defeat (now DOD:S) started as a Half Life 1 mod. I think we can encourage the modders to band together and create something huge without throwing insulting remarks @gamesas. All of those games I mentioned became games with the huge benefit of having the tools from the original games to hone their craft.

I think gamesas has done a fantastic job and I'm hoping the moaning some day will die down (as it did when Oblivion came out). So, in theory enough modders with the available skill sets and time could craft their own game out of the engine(provided there are no legal troubles) but that isn't so say gamesas haven't given us quality games for damn near 20 years now.

These are my thoughts on the matter.

Again, Nehrim is great, but it is a total conversion, not a game made by a modder from nothing

Not even close.

First, it was mentioned a lot already, the most of the work has already done by Beth, the engine, the framework, the world, the animations, the models, the system...

Creating it from scratch is completely different than tweaking it.

Also, most of these modders take a couple of months and focus on one part of the game. They might do a better job at that point because they only need to modify that one part, while in development people have to work on many things. An artist for example need to create many different statues, the textures for every dungeon, the faces for every new NPC that is created, lightning, trees... etc, all this in a set timeline so they can continue working on something else.

they could certainly add modders to the dev team, like valve did with CS and portal for instance
but if modders could make a better game
they would have

there just isn't enough organization to develop a game from the ground up
communication and stuff could be done over the internet but these are people working in their free time each with their own motivation
there has to be some kind of hierarchy to make a coherent game and probably some funding so they could do it full time

talk about modders not programmers who build games from scratch.

Yup. And if you pay them full time to make it, as the OP suggested? Then they're effectively what we already have - devs.

Definitely better. Modders focus on what players want, while developers do what they want, and focus on money.