Modders aren't one entity, they are as varied and of differing opinions than anything. all modders are not on the same camp and don't think alike. some agree with the changes others doen. hell how do you know a Beth employee isn't Modding on the side?

I don't think Modders can make a Better TES game for the same reasons Mercs can't be an organized army under one ideal. No leadership no structure (we're talking about INDIVIDUAL MERCS, NOT A COMPANY) and definently no singular ideal.



Modders don't neccesarily make a better TES game, but they sure as hell make TES games Better.

Modders can make aspects of a game better, for sure, but it's pretty likely that a team of modders tasked with creating a financially viable game on the PC/360/PS3 would crash and burn.

The difference is that modders are creating MODULAR fixes. I certainly don't grab every mod out there. In fact, I will probably only use a dozen or so mods for the whole game.

Mods are more about customizing a given game to your own personal preferences. Even a game completely created by modders will still need to be modded just as much to fit other individual tastes.

Most of the mods I use are to make the game harder/more realistic or to actually remove the excessive amount of hand-holding features. Bethesda produces a game to reach the maximum size target audience that they can. Adding hand-holding helps them do this, but it also detracts from the game for a lot of people. If they simply would have added an RPG mode where all the hand-holding was turned off, it wouldn't need much modding for me.

Then you are asking for something that does not exist. Once modders have full control over the game including the engine, they cease to be modders and become indie developers.

But with all due respect, that question I answered was loaded, and you just proved why. It doesn't really matter what I say in response, because that question is fallacious.

The engine is the unreal engine. If it were a full blown game in it's own right, it would not require you to have oblivion as a prerequisite.

i have been in the modding scene now for 15 years, and i still cant code [censored]. :S
most of what i and most other modders do is just looking at the code and see what happens if i change this line to that line, or this to that.
without existing code we wouldn't be able to do anything.

and let me tell you, it is an enormous task to code a full blown game engine from scratch. one that i think only a handful of us millions of modders are capable of doing.
and comparing a full blown game engine like TES' to a standard software tool is like comparing the mount everest to the small hill behind your house.
(and this is the reason why beth has recycled their code since oblivion)

there are a few community driven projects made by modders and enthusiasts such as http://www.infinity-universe.com that has been building a game engine from scratch.
but for example infinity, this project has been going on since 2004 and is most likely gonna go on for another 5 years before the game is out in a playable ALPHA

And yet they still have full control over that engine to do with as they see fit. Even if it was licensed.

Once again, the idea of modders making a full game entirely on their own is a false premise. Modders who make entire games with engine access are not modders, they are developers.

Nehrim is a brand new game made without engine access. That's as close as you get. So you can stop trying to misdirect people now.

To change the engine, you need to change the excutable to make the game work. Doing so is strictly prohibted by the end user license agreement. The only way they can make those changes is through the creation kit. Funnily enough, a tool supplied by Bethesda.


No misdirection or anything of the sort. That "game" you refer to, is a modifcation of the original code, not any changes to the engine.

This whole idea is absurd. I have the UTMOST respect for modders, because frankly good modding takes a lot of skill. However, anyone who has even a layman's idea of how game development works will know that thinking that the TES modding community could build a better game from scratch than Bethesda can is totally absurd.

Just off the top of my head, these are a few of the things the modding community would need:
A leader-- someone with a clear vision, good business sense, is decisive, charismatic, experienced, and has a thorough knowledge of game design and management
Department heads-- people with similar qualities to the above, but more specialized: level design, code, modeling, texturing, animation, etc.
Department personnel-- people with developed skills in the above areas
Marketing personnel-- people who would help sell the game through media
Production personnel-- people who would actually MAKE the game in its physical form (DVDs, maps, boxing, manuals, etc.)
Voice actors-- arguably nonessential, but it (unfortunately?) seems this is where the industry has gone
Media personnel-- people who would create website content, moderate forums, etc.

On top of that list (which is certainly incomplete), all of these individuals would need to be able to work together well (over the internet, I might add!) and be dependable. See, part of the beauty of modding is that you can create what you want, when you want. You don't have to provide support, you don't have to finish it, you don't have to polish it. You work at your own pace, and you answer to no one. No one tells you that your idea will be cut, no one tells you that you have a deadline to meet, and no one tells you that it isn't polished or high quality (well, mod-users might give input on all three of those, but your job doesn't depend on meeting their demands). In this (absurd) situation, all of those skilled and talented people would have to be willing to give of their time to work on things that perhaps were not THEIR vision of what the game would be. They would have to come through with fantastic content before their deadline. They would have to collaborate, compromise, and cooperate.

And this is just me scratching the surface of what would need to happen to have modders make a game from the ground up. I didn't even mention the creation of a physics engine, or a Creation Kit-like program, or any of the other foundation bits that a game of this scope needs. I'm sorry, but there are a LOT of naive people out there who think "Oh come on, Bethesda, I could do better than that!" Well then, why haven't they done it? Because it's not as easy as they would like to think.

no its not the unreal engine, skyrim uses a modified oblivion engine.

I think the original post assumes that the modders, magically or otherwise, have the know-how or other variable skills to actually make a game. I think the question should be rephrased for those who don't understand the question.

"Hypothetically, if a team of modders had the experience, time-frame and finances that were equal to the Bethesda developers resources and skills - who would make the better game?"

Exactly. If the modders (no matter how sliiled they are) could do it better than Bethesda, they would being doing it, and getting paid handsomely for doing so. That's all that needs to be said.

Uh huh. And what engine does Oblivion use? Please enlighten me...

...and for the fact that I did, actually, do no such thing as ask for anything at all. Are you sure you're responding to the correct person? I made the very same point that you say I am asking for something about

What.

You completely missed the point of my post. Read it again.



This is better. I have no doubt that put together a talented team of modders, they could put out a game similar in quality to Bethesda's (even Nehrim was not without lots of bugs when it first released). Better, probably not. But modders occasionally find themselves hired by real developers, meaning some of them really do put out professional-grade work.



I know you didn't, that response was more directed at the guy I first responded to than you.

Oblivion engine, beth made their own.
here is is a list of all games using unreal's engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Unreal_Engine_games

and sorry thomas, i got a bit lost in this thread.

you cant really do that... mods are so great because there are a bajillion to chose from to tailor the game to your specific tastes. the vanilla game is always the vanilla game and is basically meant to be a framework for mods (IMO). so can modders make a better framework for themselves? i say no, because there would be far too many differing ideas on what is important and what is not. bethesda has an idea of a large, diverse world full on alternate interpretations precisely for anyone to RP and mod whatever they want. modders work from a framework, they would probably be lost trying to build the framework themselves.

You are correct, I was mistaken. Sorry.

My point isn't negated by the fact though.

No problem.

That's TES for you. Debates can get a bit... heated... at times. When you have a game as easily moddable as this, everyone starts thinking their opinion is the only one that matters. And that is true... for your game on your PC. Not for everyone else.

Only the highest class of whiners would whine about their inability to refrain from using spell making to break their game. No true fan of TES would ever complain about spell making breaking their game by making it too easy because they would simply not break the game by making OP spells with spell making.

This argument is thin and frankly invalid if I may say so.

As for if modders could make a better TES game than Bethesda I think given the proper time and resources they could, but at that point it would become expensive and they'd need to listen to their marketers telling them the blunt truth that flashy graphics and loud noises in a game will sell better than what they come up with so they have to change their game, and then you end up with what is basically the team Bethesda has that does the work modders would do.

So I even think Bethesda could make a better game than Bethesda. Just if they had the freedom to do so, if their hands were not bound by the chains of sale figures. Even if I don't like to admit it TES fans and others that would rather see deep thought provoking games rather than flashy action games are a niche market that is simply unwise to model your game for when the larger markets will bring in more profit.

No but I think there are some extremely talented individuals who create some great mods that really enhance the experience of the games Bethesda creates. I hope to learn more about modding myself and I'll be glad to give feedback to great mods.

:tes: and I heart modders too.

Ok.

Open cities that are more detailed (think open cities and better cities for Oblivion), better AI (take advantage of a better CPU), higher poly models, higher res textures, larger draw distance, bigger game because it would not be limited to one DVD, bigger more complex quests because heavy scripting could be used. I'm sure there is more I'm forgetting but those are for starters. Even if you cut the higher poly models, higher res textures and larger draw distance the game would still be vastly better. Not trolling consoles or anything, I play many games on them

How would you know how big of a task is, if you don't know how to code?

Not wanting to disrespect Bethesda, they did fine, but the answer to TC is yes, the numbers of ideas and good stuff the modders brought, bring and will bring on the table outclass whatever the staff at Bethesda has done, when it comes in terms of modelling, gameplay and creativity, I just wish I could enjoy all of that on my 360 :cryvaultboy:

No. But if the Devs hired teams of modders to help out..

TES VI would be AMAZING