there still enclave tod fondit

what are you talkin about?

No, because America violently broke off from Britan and beat what was considered as the most powerful army at that time twice over (1776 and 1812, respectively.)

The "old coots" are retirees.

A better question would be "Are retired military personel not respected?"

Thats not a very good anology....they went into hiding because they had no choice...not because they lost all faith in the organization.......or had a revolution

No technically they are ex-Enclave soldiers but that doesn't mean that they hold no loyalty to the Enclave. They are still apparently very loyal ( loyal enough to fly into the fray one last time and remind people of the power of the Enclave) and reminise on the good ol' times ("For Auld Land Syne", "For Old Times Sake").

True they do yearn for those times again, but all but one of them absolutely hate the organization itself. I wouldn't exactly call them retirees when they're organization was completely destroyed, but you two have a point. I still don't count them as the Enclave appearing in New Vegas.

Gosh I hope not.

No they are not because the Enclave as an organisation doesn't exist, even Judah Kreger says he can't order them because "He stopped being their officer a long time ago."

No Enclave anymore. Jeez, seems like some people are stuck in the past with the factions.

There are three main factions in fonv. Neither of them is enclave or bos. Then there is a handful of minor factions which can all play an important role, and this does include bos and kind of enclave.

To say enclave is gone because of events of fo2 and 3 doesn't make much sense. Especially seeing how wherever they go, they will have the tech that gives them an edge on survival, and possibly an edge in negotiations with other powerful factions in terms of alliance or truce.

I highly doubt they will be a major faction anytime soon, but if they aren't represented as more than a few old coots I would be annoyed. You never, ever, ever, throw all your eggs in one basket and risk all in one fight. Obviously, they are not that stupid, or we wouldn't have been thrown the bone about Chicago.

Really people have nothing to worry about. There will always be new stuff and groups, but I'm interested in the story and how everything will piece together.

What does technology have to do with the fact that the Enclave has very few people left?

How do you know how many people they have left? It makes no strategic sense to risk your organization in one battle. Where the Generals? Someone made Eden, sure wasn't Autumn, and he a Colonel. If he highest ranking officer, pretty sure he would have made his first action to declare himself General Autumn.

Styles don't you dare [censored] Ninja me...

1. The government was on the Oil Rig, when it was destroyed the Remnants say that the Enclave leadership fell apart after the Oil Rig, BECAUSE THERE WAS NO OTHER AUTHORITY LEFT ASIDE FROM NAVARRO. Why would the Remnants settle into the wastes if there were more Enclave hiding somewhere else.

2. Generals require thousands of troops and such, the title General would be completely abitary what with the Enclave small population, also you can't just "Declare" yourself a General, I imagine that the US Army is a tad more complex, pretty sure your wrong.

3. Eden was built before the war.

Enclave were the most poweful people left in America. They let their guard down. "who can touch us here on the Rig." FO2 tells us they are only at the Rig and Navarro. The Rig had way more people on it then Navarro. Rig gets blown up by a nuke. Eden was a pre-war ZAXs computer let in at the Rock. FO3 tells us that what was left of the Enclave went east under Autumn Senoir. So this means there were no Enclave in the east till after the Rig went boom.

New Vegas lets us know that only some of the Enclave went East. The rest stayed at Navarro which later falls to NCR. The Remnants they to make a life in NCR but Bos and NCR hunt them down.

Chicago was most likely re-populated by the Enclave that went east on their way to DC.

No duh. That is information we have been told so far. We also know from the bible that the enclave took shelter across the United States. Not one spot. If they smart enough to know to get out of DC, knowing it will be nuked as primary target, smart enough to spread out across the entire USA, to increase again chances of survival, they all of a sudden become stupid enough to leave where they are, all move west to oil rig, for a convenient single strike neccessary to destroy all of them, then those who survive move east, to repeat the exact same mistake.

I know enough about egotistical officers that if there is no one to oppose them, they sure will promote themselves. Number of troops is irrelevant. There are plenty of Generals who do nothing but sit at a desk and play checkers with their staff and have meetings with their secretary to take some dictation. If the highest ranking officer left after the oil rig was just a Seargent, you better believe he not gonna try to reform the organization as a Sarge.

Just because some former enlisted enclave troops don't know if there is other enclave by no means decides if there is or not. They just don't know. They are also an organizatiion about secrecy.

If enclave is so dumb to make the exact same mistake twice, then I would personally view that as dumbest military group ever. Seeing how ever other move they made before then was pretty smart, I don't see it happening.

Ya, the computer was made pre-war, but as far as eden personality I figured obviously enclave behind that. I'm not sure how they could program that personality pre-war, and if eden just adopted it and was all self aware seems like he would have just broken off from enclave all together before events in capital wasteland all together

Never trust the Government. They lie. Certain leaders will always sound egotistical. Evacuate? In our moment of triumph?...

The dumb die, while the smart rise.

Yeah the Oil Rig had defenses, it the natural defense of the ocean coupled with a pre-war weapon to sink hostile ships, the only ship that could possibly threaten the Enclave was disabled by them presumabely to use at a later date. The plan was to posion everyone with a virus, a virus which requires a vaccination to survive not just being pure-human like in F3, so more than likely the Enclave who survived at other locations moved to the Oil Rig. Besides, the only way for them to survive is to obviously intebreed, it makes more sense to have a larger genepool as possible. The events of Fallout 3, why the Enclave were there etc. have been talked about ad nauseum and really, the fact that the Enclave lost in DC is just [censored] writing and a railroaded story forcing the BoS to win, would the real US Army just fling troops and vertibirds at Optimus Prime when it's legs are such a huge target, they fly in from behind the dam thing the very second you leave the Pentagon at the start of Take it Back and the bird just spins slowly in the air to shoot it's face when it just had the perfect shot at the weak-points behind it's legs... look I don't want to talk about Fallout-[censored]-3.



I'm sure you do... where is it ever said that Autumn has a history of egomania? Do you really think the Enclave would let it's only General [censored] around? Do you think the Enclave has time to sit around playing checkers? The bible says that the US Army under the Enclave had around 200-800 soldiers, where in such a small army would there be room for useless officers? If in some hypothetical utopia without Fallout 3 the last of the Enclave were at Navarro then the chances are that there would be nobody in the line of succession to become a legitamate President and therefore, a Sergeant being the highest ranking survivor could call himself whatever he wanted because the Enclave as the legitamate government bound by laws and stuff would no longer exist.



Yeah the most efficient way to run a government after a nuclear war it to keep all it's departments operating independantly of each other, not aware of the others existance? Kreger was a Captain, in a small army. Why would it even begin to make sense that the Enclave doesn't tell it's own people that they're more of them alive?



Eden himself says that he gained his own sentience and crafted his personallity from those of past Presidents, so no, he didn't "just break off from the Enclave all together", why on Earth would he do that, so he could just run calculations with no orders on his own? Think man. He's a computer, wtf is he going to do either not giving or taking orders?

I'm sure they did think the oil rig was well defended. I'm saying it impossible for the enclave, who spread out before the war to all make it west and gather in one spot. It a wasteland. Do they have star trek teleporters?

Yeah, I am also saying that a Captain, officers, troops, and a lot of the leadership will be completely left in the dark. You think every soldier in present day army has full knowledge of all military activity? No way. With fact that a lot of communication is going to be severed, their could be enclave forces who are far more intelligent and resourceful than those who were out west.

I was making an anology about generals needing troops to command in order to be classified as a general. If Colonel Autumn was all there was in terms of military leadership, he would have made himself General Autumn. There is no vote going on. Eden wasn't elected. He declared himself, and he didn't come out and say greetings American, I am secretary of state john henry eden. Only reason why Colonel Autumn is Colonel, is probably because there are Generals somewhere, and thus he can't just declare himself highest ranking officer because he is not. We also assume Chicago outpost was formed from west coast. It could have already been there.

It could also be true that what was said in FO2 by enclave and the pres is what they believed, but what they believe and what actually the truth can be two different things. They can think all the enclave is on the rig. Doesn't mean it true, and for all we know that is what enclave wants them to believe. If they don't know of existence of other enclave, they can't reveal their locations so they can be hunted down, too. Survival. They could have been using the rig, Autumn, to probe the abilities of potential enemies.

Who knows, there have only been 4 fo rpg games and one strat game. The actual story is for the most part a mystery with only bits and pieces that we have to decipher what is information and misinformation. Your character isn't the only one who can .

No they walk, they made it to DC fine enough didn't they?



I really don't understand your arguement for this, why would the Enclave keep everything secret from there own people what is the point, they were secretive to other Americans before the war not so much internally. So your saying that there may be Enclave "forces" (please bere in mind that the Enclave is not just an army) somewhere out there that have had no connection what-so-ever with the Oil Rig or the events of the last games, that don't even know what's going on? If you truely believe that the Enclave is so smart then how can you think this? The Enclave have satilite communications, if they are so clever as to instal bases everywhere then they would also have some communication system, like PoseidoNet. The Enclave's leadership was out West, it was planned before the war that the Oil Rig would be the main headquarters.



Why would he have? Eden is President because he was on Richardson's Cabinet and was presumably next in line for presidential succession until an election could take place. We can assume that Chicago was formed sometime after 2242.



The virus they were going to use to essentially win the Great War and ensure there entire survival required a vaccine. Why would the Enclave keep the very existance of other locations (if they exist which I believed they didn't before 2242), the actual location I will agree but keeping the very existance secret I can not believe. What would be the point in having all these secret bases, the Enclave don't think that they will lose, they were on the very cusp of victory, THE OIL RIG WAS THE MAIN HEADQUARTERS, are you seriously suggesting that the Enclave Oil Rig was a decoy by the "real Enclave" to "probe out enemies!?!" They were going to posion the world, all enemies would be dead, again, the virus will kill all those not immunised to it, why would any Enclave leadership not aboard the Oil Rig not be there to be immunised, why would any Enclave be anywhere else, they need their people, they wouldn't sacrifice them and don't come back with "Shadow Government=Evil", the Enclave are the decendants of the pre-war Enclave, they are all equal and united together, not plotting coups behind each others backs.

Only bring them back after two to three more games, and towards the end of the game... I can imagine them blowing down a wall and a team of eight of them burst in...

new vegas doesn't have many interesting factions, the fiends and the kings were cool, but ncr is a joke, poorly armed, no high tech etc, pretty weak overall, and ceasers legion is laughable, they live in tents, mostly use melee weapons and in a game where the player has all sorts of high tech firepower much stronger human factions are necessary, so if you don't like the enclave, thats fine but to replace them with homeless people and cavemen basically hasn't worked for new vegas and thats the reason so many people aren't fiding new vegas very challenging or fun once they've reach level 15 or so. the game deserves its 7.5 rating from gamespot, i think they were being generaous cause it was a fallout game, but the main factions were pretty weakly armed and had no tactics other than to either rush at you with melee weapons or use generally weak weapons overall like ncr.

Weakly armed does not make the faction less interesting. You don't need "l33tzors lazor cannon powah amur" and other cool-factor junk to make the them more intriguing.

double post

why do you have to sound like a ass when you say the stuff in Quotes like a Jerk its dumb. Its kinda humiliating to yourself. And factions that only have melee weapons just show that there poor and cant supply there troops with adequate supplies. Also the BOS were interesing not just because they had Power armor, But because they were Superior and you could trust them with your life.

Actually, I hit the 'quote' button by mistake, thinking I am editing my original post. You are the one who sounds like an ass right now. :blink:

As for the equipment, no my point still stands. You don't need fancy stuff to make the factions appear more interesting. Supply lines? How does THAT make a faction more interesting? Having a upper hand yes, but interesting? :rolleyes:

It's also subjective but the BoS of F3 weren't anything ground-breaking to me in any way, shape or form. They sould have renamed 'em to Michael Bay's Power Rangers which would be more fitting. Heck how does a bunch of cliché Arthurian knights in shining armor seem more intriguing than a whole of army of Roman-inspired grunts who lead a spartan life, crucify their opponents and use the whole "the end justifies the means" logic? No, seriously?

The Legion has plenty of powerful weapons. Ever fought them at the Dam or at the Fort? And it's written "their", not "there". The BoS in FO3 was kind of two dimensional. The real interesting factions for me are the ones who aren't trying to be the saviours of the wasteland just for the hell of it.