WOW! You really don't understand roleplaying! WHY don't you get more involved with some other game that's more 'Hack & Slash' , which is more to your liking, and leave Skyrim to us.

Working on your charictor is akin to working on yourself, you may not workout, but I'm sure you read.

PC refinement is a large portion of RPGings appeal and fun. If that's not for you, roleplaying isn't eighter.

BETHESDA's on the cusp of developing a 'truely' amazing RPG, and Skyrims skill leveling system will "DEFINATELY" not get the next installment there.

BESIDES, you could have all the skill in the world, but if you don't have the physical attributes to match, you'll never be the best. You two want to be the the best at everything just by doing it. THAT's really far fetched...

Roleplaying has very little, at all, to do with being able to allocate attributes outside of character creation.

Shows what you know!

I respectfully disagree with that thought. Role playing is all about character. Everything about that character. The more detail, the better for me. This would easily include attribute improvement through skill usage. Role playing is not about number crunching. A role playing character would not drop his beloved dagger because a mace does better damage or gives him a stat boost he needs. He holds onto that dagger because that is what he uses.

On the flip side, role playing has very little to do with my own ability to aim and click a mouse button. *I* am now the swinger of the sword, not my character. *I* am the one picking the lock, not my character. Keep *me* out of the game as much as possible, please.

THANK YOU AIB, well put ....... very well put

Something in your statement did stand out though, ideally for me, you wouldn't allocate any attributes.

Upon the games start, your given a character with a back ground story, race, attribues set, then you continue with 'the hand your delt'. I would really LOVE to see random starting points to complement the beginning also.

Would it be too much to hope for the return of attributes, but in a more balanced and useful way?

Sounds reasonable

You need to read my mans post in the "FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T START WITH MORROWIND" thread, he said it best. AND I'm pecking away with a PS3 controller, so forgive me if I don't recap. BUT KNOW, the popularity of RPGing comes from the success of the games 'OLD' days.

"AND MICE DON'T MISS FLYING" So it might bequeath you to consider that you don't have enough informtion to form an objective opion. Your obviously smart but just haven't been exposed to roleplayings true glory.

AND TAKE IT FROM an 'old' time player, no game has got it right, close, but not right.

I run an RP enforced MUD and have done so for the past 3/4 years. And have played as such styled MUDs for close to 15. So on the contrary, I would wager I know quite a bit about this roleplaying business.

Your post would be fine, but none of that is what you are suggesting has anything to with my admittedly vague post. Obviously character development is part and parcel to roleplay. Numbers are one such representation, but not the only.

You, our dagger wielding friend find yourself upon a battlefield, trusty beloved dagger in hand and opponent bearing down upon you. Alas, the unthinkable. The opponent lands a forceful blow and your beloved dagger falls from hand and of reach. Your opponent approaches, seeking to deal the final blow and end your assistance. You look about your person and notice that whilst your dagger is out of reach and would require you to scramble, there is a mace well within reach. Do you chance the scramble for trusty dagger, or take up mace in hope to deal telling blow?

Well, of course it could be done. And I think very few people, if at all, are opposed in principle to attributes.

I just predict that Bethesda won't, as a matter of fact, go that way. My reasoning is that I think what Bethesda are trying to do is simplify (for better or for worse) the connection between your character's "statistics" and their in-game effectiveness. Attributes---again, whether you think this is good or bad is something I'm putting aside---complicated this, because certain actions were not just governed by the relevant skill, but also by the relevant attribute. So if Bethesda were to reintroduce attributes, they'd be partially doing an about-face on the design philosophy they showed in Skyrim.

Of course, I'm completely aware that this is hardly watertight. Bethesda might well say "Look, Skyrim's system didn't work out as well as we would like, and we think that we'd be better off achieving what we want to achieve with attributes". But I think that if Bethesda were to reintroduce attributes it'd be much more because of their own design goals, and not because of any perceived pressure from their audience that attributes should return. And given the way their design goals seem to be heading, I predict that attributes won't return.

I liked the scenario! But that is a situational thing. In that one, specific case, I grab whatever is closest to hand, be it a better mace, a nondescript spear, or a stick. In that case, it's not about "What weapon is better?" but rather, "Which weapon can I reach?" I would definitely pick up the mace and promptly try to stab my opponent with it

That is very different from:

Looking over your victim's body, you find they have a nice mace. It seems to "feel strange" in your hands. Strange in a good way. Maybe lighter than other maces you have held and it almost seems to have a glow about it. "This must be something good", you find yourself thinking. The dagger that has been at your side for so long is placed in your backpack. Maybe you can find a place to store it well at home...

(Not a good as your scenario, but I tried )

(SEE ABOVE bottom of box)

Look srk, there are countless games out there with an RPG flare that don't use attributes. HECK, I thought RAGE was a fun game with a little roleplaying flavor.

AS I SAID to DEAN above, RPGing is about your character (PC), and knowing your character is a basic part of the experience. ATTRIBUTES are a measure of the PCs physical characteristics,

AND is paramount in the games immersion as it relates to PC diversity, sense of pride you feel in your PC - blah, blah, blah, ON an ON - IT really gets old having to keep going over this stuff, AND if it is really that important to you, like I say, there are plenty of other games that might suit you better.

I think that removing "Your attacks do X% more damage"-type perks, returning their value back to Skill Levels, and replacing them with more "You can now do X. X does this and this provided that you are in this circumstance."-type perks would be a good place to start. The perks that let you do active things influence your gameplay far more than simple percentage boosts, making the decision of which ones to get far more weighty. Also it would make the Skill Levels themselves feel more rewarding.

This. Right here. There was mod that got rid of theose "X%" perks, in favor of more interesting ones.

You know, that even makes sence, though I'd just prefer it all be tied to the PCs overall level.

I would really love to look behind the scenes and see the development / programming challenges associated withe skills, perks and the like.

I just can't help feeling like perk type skills/abilities would be easier logistically, if they were directly tied to character class/overall level, like as you said about skill level, all of a sudden your level 12 and your amputating limbs in combat.

Attributes are not the only method to discern a character's physical attributes.

Do you go up to someone in real life and ask, "What's your strength attribute?" The answer is no. We can tell, with a fairly high degree of accuracy who is stronger between http://api.ning.com/files/xhixLk1YGG7-ZAqE5*qfWYkQwR8gT33J80urKIDWie92q99rfNJY9cuWQwBc0SgJL8R62nd61y4-emKIBt2FHbI8WyqhJXAp/gandhii.jpg and http://static9.depositphotos.com/1003940/1113/i/950/depositphotos_11134190-Full-body-of-muscular-man-exercising-with-dumbbell-on-white.jpg, just by looking at them. Same again for runners, you can typically tell whether someone runs or walks (ALOT in the case of walking) by looking at their calf and hamstring muscles. Obviously it isn't necessarily a 100% thing, but for most cases, I'd suggest you can tell by cursory glance.

How does that translate to mental stats? Well, that's a somewhat difficult one to broach, but thankfully you limited it only to physical characteristics so I won't need to go into it (much) at all. Even in real life our attempts to measure intelligence are somewhat... hit and miss.

Charisma? In social gatherings, sit back and observe. It usually is pretty clear who is charismatic or not.

If the game is providing visual, audio or other feedback on how well we are doing things in the game, if improving or heaven forbid declining in some aspect, then we don't ever need to see attributes in the game outside of character creation. Attribute assignment as you play the game is a disconnect and not immersive.

D&D attributes are not intrinsic to roleplaying. I can't say that strongly enough.

In it's most simple form; roleplaying is playing a role.

I would take that further; roleplaying is playing the role of a character in which you act and think as they would.

Attributes are part of a system that can be used to guide a roleplay experience, but it is not the only method, nor the be all to end all. Attributes are great for pen and paper system. Let me say this again; attributes are great for pen and paper systems. But it's 2013 now. If the video game industry can't come up with a system that makes use of the tools it has that a pen and paper system doesn't, then there really isn't much hope for RPGs in the future of this nature.

AH Dean, but you can tell how strong someone is at a glace, at least what range they're in. AND you can tell how pretty,how fast, how smart.

GUESS WHAT DEAN, I haven't seen you but I know: how smart you are, how old, (approx), definately how wise, and get pretty close to how strong, charismatic, how heathy.

You don't believe that though, do you?

IT's called experience. oh, but I don't get any points for that, being the computer age and all.

AND I kinda blew off your, 'theirs only a 'few' old school RPG fans out there several posts back. BUT I HATE TO TELL YOU, that there are way more old school fans out their than your notion of new ones. HINT: intellegent, wisdom que. lol

You know fasntasy is based in principle off the 'old' days where: tests of strength, speed, fighting skills even tests of intellegents and wisdom, were not only performed, but were common place.

SO You see, attributes are the "ONLY" accurate measurement of a PCs stature until the time comes when we'll can play on a "HOLO-DECK" lol.

Please don't confuse what I predict Bethesda will do in TES VI with what I would like Bethesda to do. I have mostly been talking about the former. With respect to the latter, I suspect we disagree about less than it seems you think we do.

I'm not entirely sure how to respond to this post, seeing as you don't understand visual feedback, don't know what MUDs are (Yet dare suggest I'm not an old school RPG - I'm also replaying the Ultima series btw, currently up to VII ) and don't particularly seem to know how to think outside the box.

So, tell me how should I respond to your post that consists of thinly veiled insults and a "my way is the only way" stance?

I'm on console so I don't pay attention to mods. But it'd be great if you could give some examples of the new perks in this mod; or if you could point me in the direction of this mod so I can take a look at the release notes. Thanks!

Sure thing man.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1OlbMwykMYand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8-8ibpd4Qw&list=HL1367545327.

Thanks, there's some really interesting stuff going on there. For instance, with Two-Handed, also using perks/skill level to play around with attack speed, recoil, staggering, knockdown, fear effects, etc. is really clever. Definitely got the impression that Skyrim's perk trees really under-utilised the range of variables in the game mechanics.

Now your starting to understand. You can't improve on perfection, and make no mistake, the AD&D system, (if done correctly), is as perfect a set of rules and proceedures as you can get, at this point. AND the bueaty is, when it's programmed, you don't have to keep up with or even look at them.

I ALSO KNOW, a lot of people wouldn't adhere closely to them as you practically need a masters degree to know it all, but I did, and it's truly a work of genius.

I don't repeat myself much, I just don't get the feeling you keep up with the other 'official' threads as I go in more depth in those.

Been many years since I've played Ultima, though I enjoyed the game, I'd put it in a Finial Fantasy adventure game category. ALSO, I didn't find my self wanting more out of the game. Skyrim's had the potential to truly be an intricate, in-depth gaming experience. I never implied I don't love most of the game, just that the SKILL/PERK system it used was the reason so many were disappointed.

AND I rarely click on links people put in their comments, especially when they already fill the screen. But you don't need to draw me pictures.

BESIDES DEAN, Why do you suppose Bethesda keeps changing the game format each TES release?

Because they like doing new things?

You know the addage, "IF IT AIN'T BROKE, DON'T FIX IT!"

They can't figure it out.