After reading todays GI update, I'm kind of sad/worried. It seems that they covered every aspect of the UI, but with no mention of Attributes.
My question to you guys is..is that ok with you? It's not really ok with me, as Attributes added something to the game for me. I'm really not liking this further dumbing down system of skills/attributes that they are doing, it was worse in Oblivion and now seems like it's getting even MORE dumbed down. :sadvaultboy:

How could you NOT have attributes? Do you mean like making everything depend on level? I don't think that's going to happen since Todd still, evidntly, obides by the same TES trademark philosophy as before: You get better at what you do.

Don't care. But I still think there will be a Fallout-like SPECIAL system.

don't care

and honestly they are the most useless thing ever.

maybe fallout style!!

anyways glad they got rid of them, all they did was make leveling a nightmare and balancing a joke.

Included of course, rpgs must have attributes !

Stop asking this question! They are removed. Attributes are now perks and it's better that way.

Of course there will be attributes I mean the whole history of TES has had them so its only morally correct to include them in Skyrim. It will most likely be the same as always, Orc's will have brute strength along side the Nords, Wood Elfs will be excellent Marksman, High Elves exceed in Magic and the beasts will be highly Agile.

this post by someone else somes up how i feel about attributes:

"Don't think of them as gone. Think of them as invisible.

And Orc just IS stronger then a Bosmer. A Khajiit is faster then a Nord.

You still pick your own Fatigue and Magika, so there is your endurance and willpower.

Intelligence? Solve the riddles/puzzles... Prove it, that is to say. Beyond that, a Master Blacksmith is sure to have something intelligent to say about blacksmithing. Such is true of any skill, as all skills flow back into attributes. It's six of one, a half dozen of the other. "

I absolutely want attributes to be included.

I'm having a hard time imagining how many aspects of gameplay will function without attributes being present, and why, if they are present, they would be invisible.

Yeah, who said they'd REPLACE them with perks? :huh:

im split on this. one the one hand im a svcker for info and stats.......i even read all the menu descriptions of items in games that have them. and attributes flesh out your character more.

on the other hand TES games had a great concept in that what you used got stronger such as using heavy armor and big weapons would make you tougher and stronger while casting spells all the time would make you smarter. it makes sense on that level. what svcked big time was the stupid 5X levelling system that forced you to do certain things so that you can most efficiently build up your character. it wasnt an issue for me since i used nGCD but for console players it was annoying. now that they have gotten rid of that issue its a huge burden relieved.

im not going to lose any sleep over it.

try Gothic

Because you know exactly how the new system works? Stop making assumptions.


I personally would like attributes to be in,
but then again I don't really know how the system completely works so I'll wait and see before I say anything more. Though i'm feeling kinda sceptic at this point.

I would like the attributes to be included.

Yes, I think they are important in RPGs
They should also be used as indicators of guild advancement, and maybe even acceptance.
.."you seem rather stupid, no mages guild for you today I am afraid."

).

For those of you who mentioned Fallout's system, SPECIAL is the counterpart to attributes in TES. I like having a solid representation of my character, how fast, smart, strong, charming, etc... he/she is. I think this will be lost without using the attributes to measure them. That's my concern. It's still too early to tell. The information we're getting is filtered by people who don't understand what they're talking about. It's fractured and incomplete, and designed to be cryptic. But to answer your poll, hell yes I want them in.

I don't really care if we get attributes or not... What I do care about - and, really, I think when it comes down to it, this is also what all the people who want attributes really want as well - is having a substantial amount of flexibility in the character customisation and development systems. So I'd like to see characters with different encumbrances, different magicka resistance, different default NPC dispositions; as well as being able to increase my encumbrance, increase my magicka resistance, increase my default NPC disposition.

Do we need attributes to do that? Well, perhaps not. Perhaps Bethesda have found some elegant way of generating those aspects of character customisation and development without using attributes. I don't think we should say that character customisation and development is doomed if attributes are out.

Well, I for one wasn't suggesting that character progression is doomed without attributes, I just can't think of anything that would satisfactorily replace them. I've played, written for, designed and modded wargames and RPGs/cRPGs for quite a few years, and I can't think of a better or more elegant way to represent a character's strength -- for example -- than a numerical attribute named Strength.

Would any of those in support of removing attributes, or those who wouldn't object to them being removed, give us some ideas?

Atrabutes as in strength and agility! If they remove that I will be pissed after all fast travel is in I just hope there are several other forms of transportation.

They needn't be removed. Just made invisible. Physics engines and elaborate animations/simulations have made it that so, in theory, you don't need the numbers. An Orc just IS stronger then a Bosmer. From day one he swings harder, moves slower, the whole bit. Altmer cast stronger spells. Khajiit are faster... These things are true of the races without needing attributes. From there, each one imroves as they level. Endurance can be chosen through stamina, Willpower through Magika. If your character has high intelligence, then solve the puzzles in the game and prove it. As for dialogue, it can be skill driven. Of course a Master Blacksmith has something intelligent to say about blacksmithing.

Morever, all skills filter back into attributes, making them redundant. Swing a sword, get stronger. It's six of one, half dozen of the other.

I agree that the attribute system is easy to use, and my preference would be to stick with it, but just make it increase passively as you use skills.

But I'll have a stab anyway:

Strength: the role of this is to calculate melee damage and encumbrance. Suggestion: melee damage is calculated from the relevant skill; encumbrance from your health/stamina. Problem #1: what if you've been chopping enemies up with a one-handed weapon, then start to use a two-handed weapon? Won't the change in the damage you're doing seem implausible? Reply: Ok, so maybe calculate melee damage from more than one skill? Or also take stamina into account? Problem #2: how do you calculate health/stamina? Reply: Maybe this is just initially settled by race choice...

Now maybe that's not really a satisfactory system... But it does at least suggest some way of achieving the same effects that Strength was doing, without having a dedicated Strength attribute, such that with some refinement it could work fairly well.

Now this is clearly where you are misunderstanding Bethesda. Here is how they develop their games (straight from Todd btw). When they start a new game, they don't look at their previous titles and question what they are lacking. What BGS does is they try to figure out a more practical and better way of implementing features into their games. That is no different with Skyrim. If they feel there is a useless feature which really doesn't add to the overall experience, they will either overhaul that system or possibly remove it. That's something BGS has done for a long time and will continue to do. Now, we don't even know if attributes or in or out. People are just merely assuming because of a lack of information, which is silly. Either way, I'm more concerned with the immersion and the feel of the game, rather than attributes personally. What got me into TES was the exploration and doing what I wanted to do, not attributes.

I would like the series to keep its RPG roots not turn into a primarily action based game which is where its headed...

Someone is going to mod attributes back in at least I can bet.

As for them making a new game. Yeah. Right. Its an excuse for making the changes they are making.

Agreed.
Seemed too much like a horoscope type bonus. I prefer them as perks, it's more fun to earn it.
It made leveling ( especially with a race not pre-ordained to a skills bonus for the class they'd chosen) a pain in the ass.

A Bosmer whose strength has been considerably increased through training, magic, or whatever else may be significantly stronger than any given Orc. Likewise for your other examples. One of the major purposes of any statistic in an RPG is comparison. If attributes can be increased, they serve a purpose, and they can and will differ between individual characters (and monsters).


This seems to be an argument for the removal of all statistics, though - if the Strength attribute can be dissolved into racial characteristics and is unnecessary to gameplay due to player input and ability, then skills are similarly unnecessary. And attributes serve purposes that skills do not, and vice versa; for example, is a character's melee attack the only related function and purpose of his physical strength? Skills represent relatively specific activities which are affected by one or more attributes, but consider the situation in reverse: attributes represent physical and mental capabilities which encompass and affect far more activities than could ever be represented by skills.