Chameleons strength is much stronger that invisibilities strength...and Invisibilities biggest weakness is one of chameleons strengths.

I do want invisible spells.

What if happen you get a sticky situation and you want out or advance.

Invisible spells is only be use for problem solving not using all the the that breaks the game.

For example: how about that quest in SI and want to get rid of the duke. If I want to be duke, I will not go to SI without any invisible spells.

Here is a other one: how about the quest in the Dark Brotherhood and have to kill Valen Dreth.

:yes: Couldn't agree more. Just because a feature is there doesn't mean you HAVE to use it. Again, if you can't resist the temptation when others clearly can it's your fault.

So balance chameleon, have it cost a lot of magicka and have enemies use detect life more. No need to get rid of one, or the other. Again, its like getting rid of silence because there is paralyze.

Nice.

There are those, but the way I understood it, most of the Fast travel complaints were about the implementation and not that it was there to begin with. :shrug:

It is true that some people just wanted a public transportation system and were against fast travel not as a whole, but how it was implemented.

Exactly, the whole beauty of the Elder Scrolls games is the amount of endless choices for how you want to play the game. You can play it hardcoe as much as you want. If you wanted to say your character dies after not having had anything to eat for 3 days it IS something that can accomplish. Elder Scrolls more so than any other series creates a game were you can be you.

The elimination of classes and the emphasis on skills and perks to show which abilities you have spent time with practically allows for unlimited customization. I now don't have to worry about being fit into a class that I might end up wanting to change later. The coolest part is that I can now call my self anything I want. It's all about how you use your imagination. If I want to be a class say that uses Magic and Stealth I can just call it the spell stalker and keep a mental note of it. It's up to folks to choose weather they use it or not, what if you say my character is super fast and end up using fast travel to do that. You don't need to use anything, the game is just giving you guidelines.

So we have paranoid NPC's constantly casting detect life wherever they go...hmmm...do I still look under my bed for monsters?

Silence and paralyze aren't even remotely similar. Silence is targeted towards spell casting. Paralyze is targeted towards anything...even a deer.

I understand that invisibility is the warrior's chameleon as it doesn't have the player investing in sneak skills and offers a simple solution to getting around a hot spot...but its effect is just too close to chameleon.

What if Bethesda was to take advantage of the new perk system they were implementing? What if a perk for invisibility includes item manipulation without dissipating your cloaking field...and it'd still only be offered to those who invest time in the illusion school of magic.

That'd separate the casters from the warriors.

You think a game mechanic is so badly balanced that you avoid using it completely for the enormous playtime of 1000 hours and then you say leave it as it is? I fear I don't understand your attitude.



I haven't played Morrowind for a long time, so I can't remember exactly how invisibility worked in MW. Only thing I can remember is that I stole a diamond from a vendor in Balmora using invisibility and thought 'that was lame'. And the diamond was worth a lot for my character back then.

Like I said, if invisibility was implemented well it would be nice. Like actors noticing you are there if you get too close or run around. Since it's an illusion it would only make sense if the spell was completely dispelled in that case, without any dispel spells or detect life spells cast. It's easy to hide from an actor's line of sight, even when in combat (run around the next corner or behind a rock). Activating objects is not needed in most cases and you can simply cast invisibility immediately again. So more obstacles would be needed to balance the spell imo.

EDIT:



Fast travel is about immersion. It doesn't make the game more or less challenging except for the additional time needed to get from location A to location B if you have no fast travel (and MW type transportation instead). Invisibility removes almost all challenge from the game and thus it breaks the game if you use it. It's no glitch or bug either, it's something the game offers you.

invisabilty should vanish after you do something, chameleon shouldn't make you entirely invisible unless its at 100%. there nothing wrong with that setup. Its a problem with the AI. If a NPC or enemy thinks there's something around, they should do something about it. Invisibility as it was in Oblivion was not OPed at all. There was nothing wrong with it.

Fair enough.

I think a better comparison in terms of spells is Dispel and Resist Magic(ka)

Both remove the effects of magic, but one does it at a gradual rate, while the other takes it to the upmost extreme.

Similar, but you can use dispel on enemies to debuff them. Resist Magicka would help your enemy. Its funny that dispel is brought up since a lot of people don realize its a great offensive spell. Casting dispel on a Mythic Dawn, or an enemy mage=hilarious. This is why I want a lot of magic effects back from older titles, like sound, blind, lock, banish, etc.

The AI isn't the problem its the spell itself and the long time that you could be invisible. Even tweaking the enemy mages to cast a Dispel field could work but why waste putting an extra spell in when we could just get rid of Invisibilty and fix the problems with Chameleon.

You dont need a dispel field, you need detect life. Not to mention you had to stay in an area with invisabilty cast. If you left, or drew a weapon etc. it went away. Have it cost more Magicka=fixed. We need both, for variety. Both have different benefits for different builds.

How 'bout if someone hears you (really badly) then they just start randomly swinging their weapon in the direction? or cast silence/dispell (if area around caster is included)...

Definitely do not want the kind of absolute undetectability that Oblivion's invisibility gave.

It could work but Invisibilty would still be broken as you would be able to dodge the enemies attacks plus silence on a mage will prevent them from casting dispel.

How is that broken? A soon as you attack you go visible. You'd have to recast it while being unseen, but you might not have the magicka. You do know how invisabilty works right?

how about removing chameleon and just having invisibility that drains magicka while in motion, not only that but it would also change your transparency levels based on how fast your moving, the faster you move the more visible you become.

it wont be time based, and you dont regen magicka during the spell, and while its active you cant perform any other action other than movement, otherwise it will undo the spell

no magicka regen would prevent camping to just restore magicka in invisibility. and not being 100% transparent while in motion will allow AI to spot you as well, but this also removes the issue oblivion had with walking into enemies and they never notice you because you were 100% invisible

anyone else have a better solution?

I never said I didn't use the spell...I use invisibility. However the OP said using invisibility was too tempting once he had obtained and after using it he felt it ruined the game...Solution: don't use it :shrug:

IMO the spell is ok which is why I don't think it needs to be removed or altered.

That's simple. It's the attitude of "I recognize that there's no reason that everybody should be forced to play the game a certain way just because that's how I think it should be played."

Would that more people on this forum had that attitude....... or at least understood it.

Invisibility should let you become fully invisible, but be unable to perform actions. Chameleon should let you perform actions, but still be visible to a very discerning eye, even at 100%.

Most of this stuff can be fixed with better AI, traps, clever level design, and a little balancing. Enemies use detect life and dispel when they notice something, or kick/throw dirt or liquids. Guarded areas use pressure plates, magical noise makers, broken glass/gravel, or put a couple inches of water on the floor. Cap spell/potion effects at a certain percentage, or remove certainty of effect quality. Have spells constantly drain magicka, potions drain fatigue.

Another way is to add level requirements to spells. Each spell needs X skill level to perform as intended. If you are below that level, it will be weaker than intended, fail to cast, or backfire (invisibility backfire creates light and noise, chameleon might change you into bright, clashing colors). For enchantments, they would have a weighted level requirement that uses both your enchantment skill, and the skill it would use if it was a spell (chameleon enchant would use enchantment skill averaged with illusion, with the enchantment skill always having a bit more weight, for example).

The bold is enough to balance it for people that have no self control.

Just hope it isn't too balanced for the people who walk at an angle.