In this specific case, dont like it dont use it is a very valid comment.
Elder scrolls is large enough to encompass many different styles of play and absolutely no-one forces you to even purchase an invisibility spell.
If you feel things need to be gimped because its just too hard to resist temptation to use em, well, someones lack of ability to restrain themselves should not be an issue when designing a game.
Sheesh.

Invisibility was never really an issue, it was the chameleon 100% that was broken.

Either Chameleon should be removed, or capped at 75%

Umm..becasue you are a mage and stealth shouldn't be your strong suit. If you have illusion as a skill why would you need sneak or vice versa?

You do have a valid point. But it still not be so easy.No-one is forcing me,but we all get tempted.And whether i use it or not,do you not think it more entertaing/realistic,or whatever to think a wolf or some other creature,that uses smell aswell as sight to detect you.Do you not think it's reasonable to expect AI to cast detect spells.Invisiblity should not be fullproof,you still give a smell off and sound.It shouldn't be ( in all cases ) well i'm invisible,nothing can touch me.It just doesn't go down well with me at all. The spell/how it's used/how the AI react to it does need looking at.

There needs to be a way for NPC's to detect an invisible character by sound.
They also need to fix the fact that I can cast Light and carry a torch and still remain undetected if I'm invisible. Seems a little screw ball to me.

Or if NPC's could cast Detect Life, a good way to counter invisible PC's.

So noise detection needs to be better. Also, spell stats (magnitude, duration, range) should carry different mana costs than they do now, to make it balanced.

I LOL so hard when I read someone say something like "it's too tempting" as if your psychological inability to practice self control is cause for Bethesda to change something in their game.

This.

I agree. And console commands are never brought up by these folks either. How about removing some of the exploitative commands from the console eh?

If you don't like it don't use it :shrug:

So you you've never been tempted by anything ever?...give me a break son. You also think the spell is balanced perfectly also? Allsorts of things can affect our willpower/self control,to think other-wise is ignorance.

theres multiple options that can be used for this, but imo i think chameleon and invisibility should be one in the same in that there should be a fading effect while in motion

if you are perfectly still, you will be like 90-99% transparent, but if your walking slowly,(crouch walking) it would be almost equivalent to about 75% transparent, so you would fade into view a bit while in motion, while walking normally you would fade into view about 50%, and while sprinting you will only be about 25% invisible/chameleon

and while moving it causes magicka to be drained until you remove the spell, the spell will be active so long as you still have it in your hand, but you will not be able to take actions other than movement or use weapons without the spell cancelling.

also, there shouldnt be any magicka regen during the spell being active, otherwise players would be able to sit in invisibility until their magicka is replenished.

this is a combination of team fortress 2's cloak and dagger as well as dark messiahs multiplayer stealth mechanic for assassins

Well, its an illusion spell so it doesnt actually make me invisible, its not alteration.
What it does is that it stops the person affected by the spell realising they see you, their senses just ignore you, erase you, like the blind spot in your real life vision.
So I dont think creatures should hear or smell me as those senses would also be affected by the spell.
But it would be great if a higher level enemy NPC has a detect life spell or ability, and then cast an area effect dispel.

In Morrowind the invisibility spell could not be used when in line of sight of an NPC, it wouldnt work, they could still see you.
This was because its an illusion, and its of course not possible to fool someone into not seeing you when they are looking right at you.
I dont remember if this was the case in Oblivion, but I would like it in Skyrim.
Coupled with that you cant open doors, pickpocket, take any item without it dispelling would provide a good downside to the usefullness of the spell.
You wouldnt be able to pick up an item in a crowded room and dissapear, because enemies have you in their line of sight.

This sounds like when my fat roommate in college was trying to diet and got PO'd when I would have junk food in the fridge. I didn't mind if he ate it, I told him have some if he wanted, but he used to get really annoyed by it. So should I be forced to abstain from something because of someone else's personal choice? Not in this case. And not in the case of the invisibility spell.

There have been good arguments on how to fix the spell if you think it's broken, but don't 86 something because you can't keep your fat fingers out of the cookie jar.

tbh, id rather not have it at all unless they find a way to make it less overpowered, it was always to overpowered in Oblivion.

I want Chameleon gone from the series, but invisibility just needs some tweaks. One tweak is that attacking or taking action should not dispel the effect. The next is that npc's should judge stealth based on visibility, sound, and distraction. Invisibility only covers one of those, if you're loud or doing something right in front of them, they'll notice. Enemies that are not magical should throw things to try to see you or your outline; a liquid potion that would stick to you, a bag of dust, their breakfast cereal if they don't have something better. There should be some paranoia if they think you're there but they haven't seen you.

This can be said about everything anyone might consider overpowered. Just assume that everyone feels this way about anything overpowered. The other side of the coin is if it gets gimped too much and fans get upset at that.

I'm tempted by things in the real world, you know, where actual stuff happens and people exist.

I'm not "tempted" by things in video games, that's dumb. I played hundreds of hours on Oblivion, and never once used an invisibility spell because it didn't fit the characters I played. If I'm an assassin why in the world do I need to use an invisibility spell when I've got a super high sneak level?

This is why Bethesda's mindset of "any character can do anything" is ridiculous. Warriors shouldn't be able to cast invisibility spells and I should not be able to be the head of the Arcane University without having cast a single spell.

It boggles my mind when people project their own inability to exercise self control onto Bethesda and then complain about it as if it's their fault for putting it in the game and "tempting" them. Here is a phenomenal idea, if you "certainly don't" want invisibility spells in Skyrim, then don't use them. Then you can pretend like they're not there.

So, if the game were full of glitches, would you be happy? Don't like it, don't use it. Seriously, I think you use that argument to a crazy point. There are things that should be revised. For me, it's more problematic 100% chameleon, for example, which removes the purpose of Invisibility. But if this spell could be handled in a more... balanced (and yes, I know you hate that term, but whatever your opinion is, the truth is that mages SHOULD be balanced, even if this is a single player game) way.

Like I said, I assume that I tried a 100% chameleon suit at some point. But it meant so little to me (just thinking about using it right now seems incredibly boring) that I don't even remember the attempt.

So, no - in an open-world, try-lots-of-approaches game like TES, the "temptation" to do things that I think are either overpowered or just not interesting? Not very strong.

(As someone else mentioned - at any time I could just type "tgm" in the console, and I'd be an unstoppable juggernaut of destruction. But why would I do that? Boooooooring.)



People who claim "you need to remove this thing I think is overpowered, because I'm completely unable to do anything other than Min/Max For Absolute Power even if it means I'm doing something I hate" get absolutely no sympathy from me.

But Im not talking about glitches at all.
Im talking about an intentional game mechanic.
So thats overexaggerating into the ridiculous, a silly tactic.

When it comes to chameleon I feel the same about it as invisibility.
100% chameleon is not a cheat or glitch, its an intended game feature. It should not be gimped, it should not be capped and it most certainly needs no removing.
A 100% chameleon suit is quite hard to obtain before level 17, and if you purposely go out of your way and extend great effort to make one at low level, if you purposely save and reload at oblivion gates after lvl 17 to get chameleon sigil stones then that is your own doing.

As another poster so eloquently pointed out, they should not refuse everyone cookies just because the fat kid cant keep his paws out of the cookie jar.

Not once have i blamed bethesda for a lack of self control,get that straight. Explain to me why the spell as it is now is perfect?
Should i not have the choice to use the spell without it being full-proof,and useful in some cases rather than a get out of jail free card?
You've never been tempted to get a plus five to attributes,you've never been tempted to make a better spell/overpowered spell,you've never been to tempted to use fast travel,even once,or invisiblity to escape certain death? You've never been tempted to make money of alchemy?...There are so many examples you couldn't count them,in game and not real life.This is not a black and white argument. There are points from both sides here,which indicates it does need looking at overall.There are examples to keep it the same,and there are examples that show it needs changing or AI behaviour. It does need to have more of a weakness. A game still has to be balanced regardless if it's single player or not. What if want to use the spell,but i find it too overpowered,does that mean i should never use it again,or do you think it should have at least some ups and downs to it?

If it works like my little oblivion game manual said it would, then I want them in Skyrim.

i used a couple of mods that improved invisie/chameleon spells somewhat although there were limits on what they could change. bumping into someone made you instantly visible for example. two major changes that need to be made, first, they need to make it a constant drain spell with a time limit on it. second, they should have cooldown periods on them so that you can just cast invisie, sneak attack, run away, cast invisie again sneak attack again rinse and repeat. once i got invisie spells i found out i could clear out a room full of higher level enemies without getting hit once. its way to OP.

ive seen the stupid argument that 6 years olds use brought up in this thread. you know the "dont like it, then dont use it cause i want to be able to cheat in my game argument" what a load of crap and infantile thinking. its not like chameleon where you can play around with the settings and pick 50% spell. invisie is either completely on or completely off. thats it, no inbetween choices. so you either use an OP spell or you have to deliberately gimp yourself in game. that is crappy game design. if bethesda decided to make stahlrim armor light, super durable, super tough and overall waaaaay better than any other armor in the game and then put stahlrim armor in all the nord shops.............would that lame "just dont use it argument" fly for that as well. i doubt it. people would either be downlaoding a mod to fix it or asking bethesda to patch it.

i like the idea about mages casting detect life it was tried in a mod but i dont think they could get the NPCs to reliably cast the spell awhile back.

if you bump into someone you are instantly visible.

if you make alot of noise people will notice you.

there needs to be a cooldown period to prevent the aforementioned chain attack of genocide.

i would love to see NPCs tracking your footprints especially since there are snowy regions but that might be to much to ask for.

it should have a drain on your magicka so that you cant use invisie to simply cast a buttload of spells and then disappear and recharge.

one thing that i think they could improve is that as you get to higher levels of illusion you should be able to manipulate larger and larger objects while invisible provided you dont make alot of noise of do it in line of site in which case people will instantly notice you.

If the level scaling in Oblivion didnt make it unviable, I would walk around in fur armour at level 30.
I have no problem whatsoever not using the most overpowered spell, the best armour and the most uber sword.
I basically run around Oblvion with an unenchanted daedric longsword, because I like unenchanted daedric longswords.

This notion of 'cheating oneself through the game' is fallacious. It does not exist, there is no such thing.
If I want to walk invisibly through an entire oblivion gate, if I want to shoot arrows at things while standing on a rock, then that is my choice of playstyle and not a cheat.

The crux of the argument here is again that cookies should not be refused to everyone just because the fat kid cant keep his fingers out of the cookie jar.

I dont give a flying ratchet about powergaming, Im in it for the roleplaying.
And if I want to roleplay an immoral mage that uses underhanded tactics like stabbing someone in the back while invisible,
then I should be able to and not refused on account of some players powergaming style.

1) Too tempting? Erm, you even said it twice. But why wasn't I tempted? Seems rarther subjective.
2) Be strong! Don't give in to the power of invisibily!!! Um, so you're saying that in your terms, you used what you consider to be an exploit, and therefore don't think anyone should use it?
3) Overpowered? Nah. My spells only lasted 15 seconds....well, potions actually.
4) I was a thief, and never really used it. It was there only to use when things went FUBAR and I needed to pop smoke.

5) It might be because you were a magic user, and I was a thief. Perhaps different people have different styles of play? Next time play as a thief and see if you rely on invisibility so much. Perhaps you'll suggest that stealth was overpowered?