so basically your saying screw anyone else who might want to use invisie spells but not have them be overpowered simply because you want a game filled with exploits so you can have an easy game. its interesting that you brought up the shooting from rocks because ive seen threads on that subject and most people thought it was an issue that should be addressed in skyrim. apparently you dont see a problem with npcs just running into a rock all stupid like while you cast spells and shoot arrows from only a few feet above them. :facepalm:

good lord we wouldnt want to actually fix any exploits or make changes to the game. if they goof up and make iron short swords have over 200 damage i guess bethesda should save some time and money and not bother changing it cause people can just use any of the other weapons in the game. no one is forcing them to use iron shortswords.

i really wish i could post a link to that youtube video of the guy just walking through the last level of crysis 2 on veteran level not firing a shot. all he did was keep healing and using power armor. that game is probably right up your ally.

So you don't think the spell needs to have more of a downside?
What if it was a dragon shout for example. Say i like the shout,but because i can spam it without a cooldown or downside i can't use it? Don't you think that would be unfair,just to say,well don't use it? IT's a flawed argument.

Well as I said previously, I would prefer Morrowind style invisibility, wich did not work when cast in a line of sight.
Once the skeleton/ bandit/ nix hound/ trader had seen you and you were in its line of sight, casting invisibility did nothing more than drain your mana.
Its an illusion spell, and its impossible to fool someone into not seeing you when hes looking right at you.
This combined with the other balancing factor of being unable to interact with anything would make the spell better, because you cant just dissapear during a fight or steal something from a crowded room.

The flaws in all of these arguments from what I see is that people are arguning personal opinions as fact. :nod: So what one sees as an obvious problem, the other does not, yet both are arguing as what they see is fact. Makes it all rather invalid in my opinon. :shrug:

Do I think it needs more of a downside? For ME, no. For others? nah let them use it how they want. I never even thought of spamming it the way people suggested here. LIke I said, I apparently had a differnt playing style :shrug:

Regarding your example, I'm not really following you. I thought that's exactly what I said? If you think it's too strong, then don't use it. If that's what you're saying, then I agree, and thought that' was what I said :confused:

Exactly,just give it a bit more of a downside,just even things out a little.Looking into the spell and it's affects/how the AI reacts etc,is far better than saying just get rid of it.It is a good spell,and useful,just tone it down, whatever way possible without breaking it either way,it's a balancing act.

Sure you can! I've seen it in the movies! (it's fantasy, right? )

But,

Whether or not the others would be alerted or start swinging randomly through the air is the other component.

Also

Blink Spell

At the end of the day my friend,those that like the spell,but find it to easy to manipulate,just want a bit more balance. It needs to work for both types. The fact that it's an hot topic and so many yes this way ,yes that way,cries out for it to be looked at. I like the spell,it should stay,just not like it is now.But because i don't like how it is now,do you think it's fair i should be told not to use it?
Or would you think it best to try and find an happy medium? In your honest opinion do you think the spell is perfect the way it is now/or was in oblivion?....I don't think it's unreasonable to at least look at it,especially when it swings one way then the other opinion wise.Either way it shows it isn't perfect across the board/as a general topic.

Just because you don't want it in doesn't mean it shouldn't be in. If you think its cheap, don't use it. I think chameleon is more overpowered than invisibility.

If it's in it have to be balanced. Sound, footprints(in snow, durt etc) should have something to say when it comes to detection of invisible persons.

What If I want to use it, but I want it to be balanced?

And don't say mod, I don't have a good enough PC to run OB, let alone Skyrim.

Invisibility is fine. Just make mage AI able to use detect life, and regular AI hear your footsteps and become alerted.


100% chameleon is what poses a problem, as it gives you god mode.

Ok, you can control yourself, great. But there are people that would improve their experience if some things were handled in a more balanced way. That's not a matter of self-control, it's a matter of how could a feature be done better. In addition, as I have told you before, I doubt that Chameleon 100% was an intended feature, because the reaction of the NPCs is ridiculous and it doesn't fit at all in TES, in my opinion. TES' world tend to be believable. If something like that really existed in Tamriel... mages would be overpowered killing machines, and that's not the case...

The argument of "If I want X, I should be able to" is completely stupid. If I want to roleplay a mage that, instead of being saved from prison wants to kill everybody in the room and then destroy the world to its pillars in werewolf-lich form, should I be able to? The game has its limits, as every other game have, and one of that limits is game mechanics; and there are some of these game mechanics that should be fixed. Though nobody is forbidding you to stab your enemy while insible, just giving the enemy a chance to act.

Youre overexaggerating into the ridiculous again as that was most certainly not my point.
Killing everyone in the room in the tutorial in werewolf+lich form is not in the game. If it were it would be a glitch, an unintended game feature.
My argument comes from the premise of intended game features, of purpously added gameplay mechanics.

I think I agree that glitching/ bug abuse may be features that can ruin the game.
Still, you dont have to glitch duplicate items. I know I never have, ever.
I have used the repairing a bound weapon to make it permanent glitch, but only once or twice as I found it a bit annoying.
Not to mention that using unintended game features overly tends to critically unstabilise your savegame and can very well make it unplayable.

this coming from the guy that defended his right to be able to hop on rocks and kill off npcs while they mindlessly run around. im sure that was an intentional game play feature. after wall who could possible want enemy AI that was smart enough to jump on the rock just like the player did....thats just absurd. :rolleyes:

Nono, those were just examples.
Yes, I defend that right, but that doesnt mean I actually use the feature.
I have in fact in all three elder scrolls games I have ever played not once been an archer. It just doesnt interest me.

I agree that the rock example may be a poor one, as in an ideal game I would prefer an enemy who cannot possibly hurt me because of something like that to run away from me, seek cover. Possibly run away and come back with a bandit mate whose an archer.

No i never particularly cared for them in Oblivion, i never used any type of chameleon spells in past TES games anyway, my character in Oblivion was one brutal Orc with heavy armor and every type of blunt weapon you could think of, so i never used spells much anyway.

I would love it if mages started using detect life or other people started using invisibility,it would be make the spells a lot more balanced

both of these would actually make invisibility fairly balanced. if you are detected and they dont have detect life they should run towards where ever they hear footsteps.

I'd like to see 100% chameleon. I always utilized it in Oblivion. It made things a lot more fun and made things more relaxing for me. It also provides a tool for progressing missions differently, in case you want to try to salvage every non-playable character in the world.

I've never used 100% chameleon in a TES game. I've very rarely used invisbility (for instance, to escape from Leyawiin Castle after the dinner party). I don't enjoy the game using those abilities. To me, the entire point of playing a stealthy character is to pit my character (and myself) against opponents and succeed on sheer skill. Taking advantage of a game mechanic in order to simply bypass that challenge spoils the fun. For that, I might as well just watch someone else play.

That said though, I fairly roundly oppose the removal of any content, and thus of any potential way to play the game, that appeals to anyone, even if it doesn't appeal to me. There are those who enjoy 100% Chameleon and/or Invisibility, and that's fine. That's their choice. I see no reason to remove it from the game simply because I disagree with them about its value.


This is a good point. Beyond a certain point (generally fairly early in the game) none of the few creatures/characters who make use of invisibility can evade me, simply becaue I can and do use detect life. It stands to reason that NPCs, and particularly mages and stealth characters, would also have access to detect life, so it should be equally as impossible for a player character using invisibility or chameleon to evade them.

I'd rather they ditched invisibility althogether, and also made chameleon much harder and expensive to use (to prevent the overuse of it).

Uh, yeah, I do.

Invisibility does cost alot of magicka AND it is a spell that is not available until you have become at least an expert at Illusion. Once you HAVE become very skilled at illusion, it becomes available, and once you have mastered illusion, it becomes fairly easy to cast. And what the hell would be the point of being a master of illusion if you couldn't cast an invisibility spell effectively? All this sound and fury from mage haters.

If you feel you are cheating or making your game too easy by casting invisibility spells, don't bother spending your time mastering the field of illusion. . . or refrain from buying that spell. But don't go encroaching on other peoples games in order to make yours feel more balanced, when you can do the same thing just by altering your own playing style.

The 'temptation' argument is actually perfectly reasonable. There's a reason Bethesda don't grant you access to a one-hit kill sword as soon as you leave the starter dungeon - because that would not be balanced. The fact that you can choose to discard it is almost irrelevant. Most players wouldn't be able to resist using it, even though it would make for a less interesting and enjoyable experience. It is therefore the designers' job to ensure that no style of play is overpowered.

Agreed to the top portion of your post. As to the last third. . . if this starts happening too frequently, if every time a character casts invisibility some Mage, or Daedra battle/mage or lich finds him/her through detect life, these forums will soon fill up with demands for a "conceal lifeforce spell," and an ugly cylcle is reborn.