This is only a valid way of thinking if you assume your target audience is a bunch of toddlers with the self-control of a wet washcloth.
As I and others have said before, a lot of us have no problem at all not picking a particular playstyle or piece of gear.
Simply because we choose to play in the way that is the most fun for us, instead of being on a sort of powertrip all the time.
I just dont see the fun in restricting myself to that one enchanted dagger when I much prefer the look and playstyle of a plain daedric longsword.

Yes. Invisibility is a cool spell for us illusion workers. If you don't like it, don't cast it. Your argument doesn't make sense if it's just something you don't like, but have a choice as to whether or not to use it. If you don't like something but don't have to use it, then don't use it.

Also, there comes a point at which your player should be "overpowered" when compared to the average NPC in the game. It shouldn't happen at level 5, nor at level 10, nor even at level 15. But, as with the old Dungeon and Dragon games of old, once you pass level 20 or so, folks should start to understand that you cooler than the average cat and smarter than the average bear (possibly stronger as well). If you are a level 30 archmage who has taken the time to master all of the schools of magic, it would be immersion breaking if you COULDN'T cast an effective invisibility or charm spell. That is pretty much the entire point of being a Master illusionist. If you master a field of magic, becoming essentially a rare prodigy, a, wait for it. . . a MASTER, then are you not supposed to be able to do things that the average fella, even the average mage, cannot do? You are not unique, you are not a god, but you are a rare individual, of rare skill and extraordinary power. Its the reason you spent all those hours/days mastering those spells in the first place, isn't it?

As to the "temptation". The game must set bounds within reason. I.E. no Dagon's Razor for a level 2 player fresh into the game world and a babe in the woods. But "no overpowering magic" for a mage who has reached the pinnacle of his or her field? That is ridiculous in exactly the other direction. If the likes of Hannibal Traven, Mankar Cameron, Mannimarco, Dyvan Fyr or Galerion cannot manage to slip past a batillion of guards into a locked room and back out again purely on the strength of their magic. . . it is time for them to find new occupations.

If you don't want invisibility, Don't become an expert in illusion and DON'T seek out or create an invisibility spell. It isn't like those are things a player can just stumble into without meaning to. You actually have to put a fair amount of time and energy into the process. If you go through all that to get a spell and then complain about having it, you are not only bad at resisting temptation (the general you, not you specifically, former poster), but you are also highly inconsistent in your thinking.

The fact that this game is rated M says nothing of the self-restraint of the people playing it. Bethesda cannot (and should not) assume that all players will behave as you and others on this forum do. When there is no reason to assume that a game's player base is particularly honourable, relying on what are essentially honour rules is simply bad design. This is best illustrated by extending your logic and giving players the option of invulnerability, unlimited invisibility etc.

OP mean original post or poster. Just say over powered don't be lazy :tes:

Invisibility as it is in Oblivion is a cheat. Nothing more, nothing less. Sure, there are some restrictions. But overall you can simply skip all enemies, escape from any fight, steal everything you want and get away with it. It's not even hard to get an invisibility spell. A game mechanic that removes all challenge from the game is a cheat, that's simply the way it works. And for those people who do actually like the way invisibility works - type 'tai' into the console and you have your invisibility spell. No need to destroy the whole game balance for people who actually do like a balanced difficulty.

Restricting myself is a silly idea as a game is about overcoming a challenge. If I constantly need to restrict myself from doing things the game clearly allows me to do (and I'm not talking about glitches like the duplicate item thing or AI problems like jumping on rocks) it is boring and takes the fun out of playing the game. It's like arm wrestling with a five year old child and letting the child win. If you don't care about challenge then simply use the console or a mod (if on PC). Or set the difficulty to super easy. Problem solved. Better then a game with silly rules for the majority who do play games for a challenge (maybe not exclusively, but as one if not the main motivation).

It's your fault you can't resist using invisibility spells :shrug:

Also overpower is 100% Chameleon, invisibility svcks imo because next to chameleon it's worthless.

Eh...what? You are the perfect customer. If there is an ugly texture in the game it's probably also my fault if I don't avoid looking at it, right?

Why do so many people think overexaggerating into the ridiculous is a valid debating tactic?

the argument that because im a super wizard i should be able to do all this stuff is stupidly dumbified. i would like someone to explain to me how its ok for my character to cast illusions spells and charm spells all over the place and do sneak attacks but NPCs dont. the only examples of invisibility were the khajit from the bruma guild (who i accidentally ran into on accident when i was looting on my very first game) and the wood elf from the blackwater guild in the fighters guild questline. there was an invisible village but that was a curse by a sorceror. how come i didnt see necromancers casting invisiblity when they were fighting me. i saw chameleon once in a while but i could still see their shapes easily. why am i supposed to believed that of all the magicians and all the wizards some of which actually sell invisibility spells...........I AM PRACTICALLY THE ONLY ONE THAT USES IT.

@skullcrusher............ive cleared entire rooms of daedra that were several levels above me without taking a single hit by using invisie/sneak attack. i do agree though that 100% chameleon is the ultimate cheat spell.

Dont like it, dont use it. not to mention Invisibility wasn't a cheat, or OPed.

I agree, a broken game mechanic that removes all challenge from the game is a much more severe issue than an ugly texture. So sorry about that.

You can basically "justify" every feature no matter what it does with that argument, and then claim the opposing arguments about gameplaybalance as lack of self-restraining ability. I find it a bad argument since it doesn't elaborate on anything, but relies only on "http://www.blogcdn.com/www.urlesque.com/media/2010/06/backpain-1277406949.jpg"

Well yes, but not only that, throughout this thread the difference between a cheat a bug and an intended game feature has been debated and done with. There also have been pretty nifty balancing suggestions.
Its like you didnt even read these parts, and I dont see the point of re-opening up avenues of discusion that were already dealt with.

Was invisibility in the last installment unbalanced due to flawed game mechanics?
Yes.
Should it therefore be removed totally or gimped beyond recognition?
Absolutely not.

You chose to go 100% chameleon or make a 100% chameleon suit. It wasn't given to you, it wasn't just there to be had. Dont want to be OPed, dont go out of your way to OP yourself. There was nothing wrong with invisibility.

Sure, but how far will it eventually go with the OPed features if that's the line of thinking? How much will people eventually have to knowingly avoid? It's not about invisibility alone, but the general line of thinking.

I'm not a big fan of Invisibility coming back for Skyirm. I like the spell but it's too broken. Cast Deathly Visage or its equal, get behind enemy, whack for 6X damage (or 10X damage with a Dagger in Skyrim), recast spell, repeat. If it does come back in Skyrim then it needs to be a perk in Illusion but only if you picked all the other perks in that section, your illusion would also need to be at 100, it needs to have a high magicka cost and a 15 second time limit for the spell. Anything other then that and it's still broken.

Chamelon shouldn't come back but if it does then you can't be 100% invisible at 100%. You should still be visable but you would need to look carefully in order to be seen.

Uhm...did you even read your own posts?



That is what you posted...leave the spell as it is. I posted



As it is in Oblivion. I didn't necessarily say remove the whole spell effect. If there is a more advanced AI and/or some other restrictions that make invisibility harder to use then I'm fine with it. But a spell that removes all challenge from the game breaks the game. Maybe look up the definition of game on Wikipedia. The key elements are goals, rules, challenge and interaction.

There was nothing wrong with invisibility. It was Chameleon that could be exploited through spells and suits. And its totally optional. You have to go out of your way to make a 100 Chameleon spell. Or make a suit. Balance it, no need to remove it. Invisibility is fine, maybe make it cost more magicka.

With all the cutting of clutter and redundant skills and spells in Skyrim, it'd only make sense to either have chameleon or invisibility in the game.

If you invested the time in building up chameleon enchantments or even just a powerful spell, you could make invisibility useless.

Nope they have different strengths and weaknesses. Both are useful. That's like saying "get rid of silence because we have paralyze."

...hum...that's not a valid point I have the game, played over 1000 hours of OB and never felt compelled to use invisibility spells because it made the game easy. You say you want the game to be challenging but you can't resist using a spell that you know will make the game less challenging? I'd say it's your fault :shrug:

Yes, but after reading peoples thoughts I came to the realisation that my memory of Oblivion mechanics was flawed.
As I also posted, wich conveniently you ignored, I much prefer a Morrowind style mechanic where invisibility simply does not work when cast in the line of sight of an NPC. I also like how it dispels with any action.
Furthermore I wrote that I would like to see NPC mages and higer level monsters use detect life and dispel.
As it was in Oblivion one needed master level in illusion to use it effectively, and that is another thing Im happy with.
Its not availble straight out the sewer.

These balancing factors, I agree, are important.

This goes a long the same argument as the people who want fast travel taken out of the game because they are to tempted to use it. It isn't that hard to create a mod that disables both of these features, of course Invisibility isn't just a spell for you either. Secondly, NPC players use Invisibility and Camo even if you don't. If I shoot say a mage with an Arrow then he goes invisible then I find my self having to use detect life to figure out were he is. I don't think the feature should be removed, sure it can be tweaked but that's a general stealth system revamp as a whole not just invisibility.

I easily found J'skar while he was invisible, (before I knew where he was) all you need is detect life, so if a mage has detect life, they should see you. However I do still want invisibility ingame. Or only have Chameleon, but it stops at 100%