Do you want to play an "evil" character in Fallout 4

Post » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:04 am

The question is "Can you?"



If there were the mechanics and narrative for it, absolutely - for my second hypothetical second playthrough.

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Neko Jenny
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:44 pm

Not sure. I wish they still had something like the Karma system adding to your reputation one way or the other. People taking note of your actions.

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Andy durkan
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:00 pm

I find it odd, with Fallout I can never play an evil character but with TES I seem to always play a character that does whatever they want, even now with the (stupid) karma system gone I still can't bring myself to do anything really bad, unless you consider sarcasm and being a smart-ass as bad.
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Lori Joe
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:55 pm


I've not finished the game, but there needs to be more options like siding with the Salvers in Paradise Falls in Fallout 3. Or Minor tweaks to the current system where you are extorting the settlements as some sort of Raider Baron; rather than helping them as the Minutemen. How about infiltrate the Railroad and disguise a settlement as a Safehouse and recapture the escaped Synths for the Institute? Something as simple as a selfish, self centered, profit motivated way to complete some of the more altruistic goals in the game already? Something that extorts the quest givers into giving you more than they wanted to for less than they want.



We don't need to tie damsels to train tracks, but there does need to be two sides to the coin...

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DeeD
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:58 pm

That's not slavery just being self sufficient . They can trade food and water for goods so caps would be meaningless to them.

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Tiffany Castillo
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:05 pm

Given that shops generate revenue they do get money from somewhere, probably by selling food and water to passing caravans or trading food and water for stuff like medicine, weapons, armor and general goods. Whose to say all of the produce goes to your work station?
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Claudia Cook
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:33 pm

In many places, if there are people sleeping who aren't kill on sight, I do a save, then I sandman kill them to see if there is any reaction.



I may be a hero to the settlers and minutemen, but that's only because they can't see the trail of bodies behind me. All of my victims could be attributed to raiders, gunners, synths, or super mutants.

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Lou
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:48 pm

I absolutely hated the Karma system. It was more than just flawed -"ughh I just killed a bunch of raiders so now I am a Paragon of Justice, need to go steal some random crap and shoot an innocent so I can get back down to neutral."
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Oceavision
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:19 pm


How do you propose a good working karma system that makes sense logically but that is also fun?



I had some ideas but I am not sure if they would be hard to implement or not.

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Adam Baumgartner
 
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Post » Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:12 am

Karma system in every fallout game was useless, so useless that the Tactics developers didn't have it and did a reputation system. New Vegas did the reputation system but pretty much did nothing. I'm glad both are gone, they did absolutely nothing useful.
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Louise Lowe
 
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Post » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:07 am

Would be great to play an evil character, as long as it doesnt go down the Mass Effect 'Renegade' route.


I guess it could be done via DLC but I would honestly rather they concentrated on other things than 'evil' actions. And I would imagine they would need to have the philosophy of a potential non-hero character throughout the entire games development; maybe next game?

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Felix Walde
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:23 pm

The game not letting you play evil is just one part of a bigger problem. The problem isn't you playing a evil psychopath or a criminal or something along those lines, the problem is that the world doesn't react to you the way it should. You could slaughter diamond city but preston will still tell you that you are the good guy and you are "for the commonwealth". This issue ties with the voiced protagonist. The voiced protagonist isn't the problem, the lack of choices is. F4 let's you be evil when you're alone, but once you start talking to someone your back to being the goody two shoes.

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Emily Graham
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:02 pm



I always assumed that the settlers gave me the money after deducting their wages as they see fit.


And my settlers have running water, plumbing, food, a marketplace and defense. It's a lot better than wandering the dangerous Commonwealth and getting eaten alive by mole rats in an abandoned shack.
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Imy Davies
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:43 pm

No you can play evil, truth is evil isn't "HA HA HA I'M GOING TO ENSLAVE ALL AND DO THESE BAD THINGS BECAUSE I'M EVIL -mustache twirl, adjusts eye-patch and/or monocle-" but more of having a different outlook. The factions all have good parts and bad parts that can justify playing an evil character. Institute has slavery of a possible sentient race whereas the BoS can be seen as a fascist genocidal totalitarian invader. Even the Minutemen can be done in a less then positive way by saying you're building up your own private army that you have complete control over.
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cutiecute
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:56 pm


What could possibly be more evil than http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/The_Kid-Kidnapper? I think the evil play-though is a missed opportunity. It offers a nice contrast, since there is no light without the dark...

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Joey Bel
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 10:17 pm

There is only truly grey though, with a few exceptions. I rather they focus on that then beeing the beacon of light, or the darkness of hell.

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Skivs
 
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Post » Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:45 am


The option to be any of the three should exist. It should be up to the player if they want t be a Wasteland Tyrant or Savior of the People, or just some guy in the corner banking caps and gear. No matter your choices you are generally greeted and treated the same.

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Franko AlVarado
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:18 pm

No, because I have no personal interest in playing an evil character in anything. :shrug:

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jessica breen
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:37 pm


Easy. If I were dictator and I could do all this before someone gave me all the lead which would so rightfully be mine under such illustrious circumstances...



Spoiler

First:


I'd do away with the karma terminology. The rain, after all, falls upon the "good" and "evil" alike - and so too does the fallout! And, that's why "no good deed goes unpunished" - speaking of which :)


The Fallout 3 practice of sending mercs after player characters, whose karma has strayed too far from neutral, could be upgraded quite meaningfully. If a faction, which the player doesn't overtly or directly attack, is aware of a player's attacks on factions it is either loosely allied with or meagrely friendly towards, then it would make sense if that faction sent mercenaries to deal with the player character instead of getting directly involved. This would be especially meaningful in the context of inter-faction relationships which are to evolve into full-blown alliances later in the game. This isn't going to be pulled off effectively if intelligence (e.g. a contract on the corpse of a careless or arrogant merc) can't be used by the player to influence the state of more delicate inter-faction relationships. This also has to be contextualised within the outlook of the faction in question. If they think that the other faction has done something to "deserve" the player's hostility, it may make sense for them to turn a blind eye depending on their inter-faction policies and whether they would perceive and pursue an opportunity to deepen their relationship with the faction in question. On the other hand, a tyrannical or solipsistic faction may not care if the player character has a justification and may consider any action not handed down by the faction administration as punishable. These kind of responsive dynamics only really work when there is the option for the player to pursue a cessation of covert hostilities, either by negotiating an agreement with the faction administration or by completely wiping out a faction which can, generally, be achieved if all of the faction's administration can be taken out before the faction has a chance to promote enough replacements for a clear chain of command to remain in place. Once a faction no longer has a clear chain of command, only three things can happen to that faction:


  1. If the faction has sufficient concentration of members in one communication network to continue functioning without schism, the faction policies and outlook will change (either favourably or unfavourably and that is a coin-flip). In this case, alliances will also shift to reflect the change in the faction's "attitude"

  2. If insufficient faction members in communication with one another remain, the faction will disperse as other "best-fit" factions take on its function for its members.

  3. If there is more than one concentration of members as per item 1 (above) but with insufficient communication between the concentrations, the faction will split - usually into extremists and moderates and this is further facilitated by the fact that when people feel that they no longer fit on one "side" of a social grouping, they will generally migrate to the side which offers the better fit. Sometimes, even, this will happen when doing so divides their own family very bitterly - which is just to say how compelling this social mechanism really is.

In item 1 (above) the coin-flip is obviated if the player can be offered the option of gathering intel on faction leaders and aspirants to faction leadership. By, for example, taking the extremist aspirants out of the picture prior to successfully decapitating the faction, the remaining moderate aspirants (to leadership) may not feel so friendly about what has happened but they will still, nonetheless, carry their moderate stance into their new roles in the faction's replacement leadership. Likewise, one would expect the same dynamic to work with extremism. Moreover, it would seem to be an effective stratagem to "guide" a weaker faction into extremism in order to destabilise a broader, more powerful alliance of factions. As in the real world, killing need not be the only way to decapitate a faction. I think it would be a very effective dynamic, especially for players who relish a very difficult challenge, if targeted faction leaders could be led into what their faction perceives as dishonour, then those leaders will be expected to fall on their swords, whether literally or figuratively. This could be achieved with a system of passive radiant quests i.e. radiant quests not announced to the player but emerging from gameplay as a means to ensure a variety of opportunities are randomly generated which fit the nature and character of the faction in its current state (which would have to change when its leadership changes to make sense). These random opportunities need not be obvious alternatives to simply killing off targets of interest because the point of the exercise is to raise the bar on cerebral difficulty as opposed to point and click action.



Second:


I'd fix the broken crime stats:


  1. Dead people can't own property so gear ownership needs to be set to be automatically cleared of ownership on the death of the owner (e.g. Covenant) or the crime stats make no sense.

  2. Crime stats are only really meaningful if limited by jurisdiction. A theft committed against one of the BOS does not count as a theft against the Minutemen or the Institute as neither faction have any authority within the organisational or social jurisdiction of the BOS. It's important to keep in mind, on this point, that in lawless territories, jurisdiction is defined by faction membership, not borders. So, crime stats in a Fallout world need to be arranged and organised by faction if they are to be meaningful.

  3. Friendly fire is manslaughter, not murder. If friendly fire killings were listed as such, they could be used meaningfully with respect to faction standings. Now, maybe a player can use friendly fire as cover for a murder but complaining because the game can't read the player's mind is a bit like asking why Napoleon didn't call in an air strike at Waterloo.

Third:


Faction Standings:


  1. Crime stats need to include, (in braces beside each figure or in a separate column) the number of times the type of crime was brought to the attention of the faction in question. After all, if you take out a dozen raiders and none escape and there are no raider allies present as witnesses, how can the action affect standing with the raiders?

  2. Bear in mind that, from the most extreme perspectives of survivalism (e.g. Eugenics), murder is a "good" deed because it weeds out the "weak" so a survivalist faction (like the raiders) might be more inclined to befriend someone who frequently kills off their members if the group is extreme enough and true to its point of view.

  3. In order for all this to be meaningful, the player has to be able to distinguish how many of each type of crime is committed against each faction irrespective of how much or how little the factions in question are aware of the player's crimes against them. This is very important because it is the best plausible way to simulate the simplified output arising from the complex balancing relationships between conscience, allegiance and rationalization.

Finally, I wouldn't bother second-guessing things beyond first tier inferences, as pure logic is pure subjectivity. If you've any doubts about this, you'll want to read some of Immanuel Kant's work to understand the factual basis for a statement like this. Owing to the increasingly subjective nature of increasingly tiered logic and the tendency of human beings to attempt anolyses which go beyond the performance limitations of logic, no player will ever agree, in totality, with any judgement system you devise. Everyone has a unique and constantly developing "code of conduct" or "way of doing things" based on a unique and ongoing experience of life and this "way of making room for others" is characterised by the individual's priorities and made less accurate by commonly overextended theorising (i.e. proposing the next hypothesis before confirming the current or even previous hypothesis). Due to the imponderable scope of resulting interpretations, as they apply to any individual's social experience, there is no second-guessing the totality of "a person's ethics" even if, in life, we can generally "avoid doing things which really tick other people off" by "extending them the same consideration we would like them to extend to us". And, yes, I really did use six completely different phrases to refer to the same thing :) Confucius, was able to sum all this up in one word. When confronted by one of his students and challenged to do so, his response was simply, "Shoo!". Accidental and, perhaps, sentimental onomatopoeia aside, the closest translation in English is either "reciprocity" or "empathy", depending on which of the many English dialects you speak.



On this point, while judgements are perceived as an essential element to some people (one temperament in particular), being seen as "passing judgement" is utterly offensive to people in one temperament I'm aware of (possibly more than one - I'd need some more data to be certain on this question). And, by "offended" I don't mean the politically contrived, "Oh, I'm just so offended because you used a word with a Germanic root instead of a Latin root to refer to something private and what would the people think if I didn't say I was offended?" kind of fake offence. I mean real, unadvlterated, sincere, honest, truthful, actually heart-rending "I feel deep traumatic emotional pain related to being singled out and persecuted by what you just said/did" kind of offence. By contrast with all this high melodrama (both contrived and real), a major advantage of the faction-based crime stats is that it can communicate, in considerable detail, the amount of harm done to any given faction without being potentially offensive in this way. Moreover, I think there just might be one or two of us who'd like to keep score of faction-specific actions (body count, assaults, thefts, etc) when a faction does something that really ticks us off - and a faction-specific set of crime stats would really achieve this effectively while providing a set of figures with tremendous potential to deepen the relationships existing between the various factions and the player character.



What would be truly superb, if this system were implemented, would be the option for the player to specify, at any time, their character's attitude towards each faction in very simple terms such as "Friendly", "Neutral" and "Hostile". Then, in the case of factions where the player indicates that the player character is "hostile" towards them, the language of the crime stats is altered to reflect the language used, in character, to describe those actions. So, in this case of player character hostility towards a given faction, "murders" would be replaced by "executions", "assaults" would be replaced by "arrests", "thefts" would be replaced by "confiscations", etc. to actually reflect the player character's attitude and consequent state of mind towards the faction in question. The faction in question doesn't know this attitude because that would involve mind reading which I don't think would fit the genre without raising some kind of psychological objection and consequent breaking of immersion. But the faction in question could still have its own attitude to the player character adjusted according to those crimes it knows about and would have reason to care about.





Somewhere, in that overly detailed suggestion of mine, I was reminded of the dialogue and quest option complaints. I think it is necessary to have a complete listing of purposive temperaments and the contexts for each set or level (i.e. by objective) of purposive motives before it is even remotely possible to design a dialogue or option rubric which offers something for everyone. The key issue which has stalled the planning and implementation of research in this area for half a century is the failure to constrain evolving methodology to objective rather than subjective anolysis. I have some rubrics in mind but, please understand, they're untested. If it doesn't spook people out too much, maybe I can throw up some role-playing polls to test some of the rubrics I've developed so far...? If you feel strongly about this, one way or the other, please say something before I make up my mind whether or not to click the 'information' option :)



[EDIT]


Apologies for my truly dreadful Pinyan.


[/EDIT]

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Jerry Cox
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 4:09 pm

In a sense, I would say yes.



However, even though I think Fallout 4 should provide you with more cruel and ruthless options instead of only allow you to be a sarcastic and insensitive jerk, the way Fallout 3 handled evil was nothing short of over the top mustache twirling with very little sense. The game gave you very little reasoning for being "evil" beyond doing it just for [censored] and giggles. Fallout New Vegas was a lot better in that regard in that they made groups like Caesar's legion which many players would argue to be the most "evil" joinable faction still a morally grey group of people who commit these heinous acts because they are utilitarians believing they are inevitably doing it for the greater good rather than a bunch of one-dimensional twisted tower loonies who want to nuke cities just for the LOLS.

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Breanna Van Dijk
 
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Post » Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:14 am

No, because most of the time, playing an evil character is basically you going out of your way to prove to everyone that you lack any shred of human decency.


"Sir, can you help me?"

"You need help? Nah, I'll just shoot you in the face, burn down your house, loot the remains, and wear your dog's skin as underwear instead."


In every RPG with a morality system, that's basically what evil ends up being, a character that is essentially petty, short-sighted, greedy to a fault, and always going out of their way to be a dike to everyone they meet. They shouldn't have been able to function in normal society, let alone be someone who can change an entire region's future development. Realistically, if they were in that position, every wannabe hero, merc, raider, peacekeeper and their mother would be going after them before too long for a myriad of reasons.
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BaNK.RoLL
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 12:53 pm

I want to play heroic characters or even just normal people who are mostly good-hearted. I only play "evil" characters when forced to do so by an achievement, and then I delete the character afterwards since I can't get invested in characters I don't personally like as people and wouldn't willingly associate with in real life.

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Monique Cameron
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 2:54 pm

Pretty much this. If "evil" consists of being able to establish a raider faction and prey on merchants and other settlements while having a deep involved relationship complete with power struggle politics then yes, I'd like to be evil.


If "evil" consists of forming my own faction and bringing order to the wasteland under the heel of my jackboot then yes, I'd like to be evil.


If "evil" consists of picking the worst dialog option for the most cap return, twirling my mustache as I make sarcastic remarks and be a general jerk while on my wasteland adventures than no, I have no interest in being evil.


Honestly there could have been some better choices in game as it were, but for some reason Betheada missed them. I'd love to say one in particular, but I can't seem to figure out how to do a spoiler tag on my phone.
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Marnesia Steele
 
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Post » Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:22 pm

I suppose "evil" is a little strong for what I want.

Mainly I'd like to be able to show a bit of attitude somewhere inbetween deliving possible-sarcasm in an apologetic tone and shooting everyone for no good reason.

For the number of people who'd benefit from it, it probably wouldn't be worth creating a parallel questline to let you grind the radioactive settlements of the commonwealth underneath your vault-dweller boots. But it would be nice to occasionally be able to be a bastard and get away with it.
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Harinder Ghag
 
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Post » Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:35 am

Because of time restrictions, I only do one play-through. I'm always a good character too. I don't really want to be a bad one. Is there even a "bad character" option? Sure, you can be sarcastic, but how do you become a truly evil character? I guess if someone is kidnapped, you can choose not to go look for them. ^_^

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Stace
 
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