Point being you were detained with purpose for an event. Not so much forced backstory as it is part of the plot. As it was everywhere except Oblivion.

What are you talking about?

Oh its debatable. As I say, Arena isn't a prison cell seeing the fact that there is no other way that it is a prison/jail to begin with. Its just goblin infected place full of treasure and thieves As for Oblivion, it could be anyone and then again, Oblivion then to be not faithful to the serie's lore.

As for Morrowind, that could be for Jiub for all I care and there maybe be a chance that the Player may be a secret agent, if that what one want.

So no, its not tradition. The only "tradition" is being a prisoner to the Main Quest, which even than onecan screw that up.


The only that offer a "prison cell" is Oblivion. All other kept there in the beginning but its no "prison cell".


Yes, meh, and no.

Anyways, I am not the type that uses those "excuse" for the reason of me being in jail. I believe we can start somewhere else and don't rely on being in prison as an intro.


In all assumption, that is what ya guy assume; jail time. I would leavea pass if prisoner is a metaphor, but judging from what I read, it think otherwise.


Simple. As a secret agent, one is suppose to be resourceful with his stuff and how to get it. As anyone else, its a clean start and one just start with nothing. Get citizenship and boom, out in the world.

Its not a prison, its a ship. Also what schnell olfy said.

Your excuse is that Oblivion can't be considered a valid source of lore? I'm done with this conversation, then, as it's clear your intention is only to pick on Oblivion, regardless of the PROOF I have given you which supports the prisoner theme. You're a prisoner. You can't argue against legal definitions and, quite frankly, claiming that what the developers themselves have written about is false because it is stated in Oblivion is just pathetic.

Those aren't proof at all and seeing that Cyrodiil should have a jungle, crossbow, werewolves, and that the King of Worm isn't a pancy, I question it greatly. Then there lore where we cannot levitate, Sutch disappear, assume we did not join any guild in Morrowind, and pretty much bland when trying to make culture and its Main Quest. Oblivion have a prisoner intro and I modded it out. That story is not my story anymore. Remember, I cannot tell ya how ya roleplay or what ya title ya re because that would a be a world of pain for anyone otherwise.

Never said you did drink. My character often slays magical demons and other things of the sort. I sadly cant and thus dont. I didn't want to insinuate that you do drink, and if I did Im sorry. It was just an example.

As for your argument, I can see your point. It would make sense, in a loose liniar progresion sort of way. And to be honest, I can't think of many good arguments to fight back against that. You've obviously thought a lot about this, and you got some very good points to show for it. I'm impressed.

But still, I've never dodged a challenge in my life. So I'll take a crack at it.

Starting off as a no one would leave many new to the series completely and utterly lost. They wouldn't know what to do, or what was going on. "I heard there were dragon's in this game. Where are they? Where's the story in this game?"

I can see it now. Now, that wouldn't be a problem for long time fans, cause many don't do main quests right away anyway. They'd eventually run into it, and a sense of urgency would then be created. However, I feel this would take away from it as well. Many players would not like that sense of urgency, because they still would rather do side stuff. They wouldn't want the main quest forced on them, even later in the game. I know the main quest is forced in the biginning, and later would probably make more sense. But, people will still want to feel that ability to choose when to do something. Ignoring the main quest at the beginning, or have it forced on you later. Now, if the quest was introduced later, would they still have the ability to ignore it?

As for jail, if you don't like it, its not like I could somehow make it sound better. That's your choice, and I can respect that. Maybe Skyrim will be more like Morrowind in the regard that your not in a jail, just being lead somewhere. And it wouldn't have to specificly be skyrim, maybe the last of the blades took you by force. There really isn't much I can argue when you don't like jails in general. All you really could do is hope that your just a prisoner, and not in jail.

Alright, those of us who do not like the prison intro have gone the whole 9 yards of defending out posistion, and then some. We have also come up with alternative ways that can work just as fine, if not better, and still leave the background more open ended.

Now, to those of you who are defending the prison intro, I ask you this question, why? What is exactly so grand about the prison intro, that it makes all other intros pale in comparison? Why must we have this introduction above all introductions? I want real justification and thought to this, because I do not understand why you guys hold such strong feelings to the prisoner intro.

Are you sure that your not a parrot at a keyboard? You keep repeating the same answers regardless if they make sense to our responses.

I'll make this abundantly clear....NO ONE SAID ANYTHING ABOUT PRISON!!!! YOU ARE A PRISONER! You are the one that keeps suggesting you have to start in the prison or else. We didn't say that every TES game made from now until the end of time has to use the prisoner beginning of the game but complaining that your a prisoner at the beginning of the game is just ridiculous especially since it will have a completely new story, setting and does not mean your a criminal. I don't know why you think that even if you are a prisoner that you have a record or that you have to be a criminal to be in prison. You could be the nicest person in all of Mundus and still be imprisoned for no reason. Like I said, you could've been captured for be exploring at the edge of Skyrim and they thought you were a spy for the separatists. I am aware that your obsessed with super innocent anime girls but prison doesn't tarnish innocence, no matter what you think, because you could've been falsely imprisoned and you can imagine that also. I never said that you had to be framed. One guy said that could be one option you could decide for. But I don't think you should tell them to change a perfectly good beginning in Skyrim just because you don't want to have to IMAGINE that your character was falsely imprisoned by bad guys. It's your backstory to imagine, there isn't a limit to where since your in prison or just a prisoner that your evil and it ruins your character. That's just narrow-minded that you think that everyone that is put in prison is evil.

Me personally? I dont know really. I mean, I started playing TES with Morrowind. The only two TES games I've played started like this. It would feel strange for me to start any other way, even if they made more sense or were better. If I could discribe it, it would probably be like moving into a new house. The house may be bigger, and more organized, but it will still feel strange, at least for a while.

I wouldn't be upset that one didn't start as a prisoner. It just wouldn't feel like home. Of course, a step in a possibly positive direction could change my mind completely on the matter. I'm not dead set against it, I'd just drag my feet a little is all.

Oh, okay, so you're basically saying that you're screwing around with me for no good reason. I came here to discuss our different points of view on the matter of being a prisoner in Skyrim, not to be screwed around with, and not to screw around with anybody else either. I'd sincerely appreciate it if you could start acting more mature; this isn't the place to be playing mind games with people. Period.

This game could start in a prison cell or a boat, or even in some creepy guy's basemant. What matters is how well the intro is presented, not where we start, and that is what you should really be more concerned about. Oblivion didn't do so well in this aspect, rushing us off to save the day. With the time the devs have had to work on Skyrim, this probably won't be the case.

And if you know that you can mod the prison details out, why the hell are you complaining in the first place? I said it before - Bethesda released modding tools to the public in order to please ingrates like you. You got what you wanted in the end, and yet you still whine about the same subject?

But your willfully chosen delusion is neither lore nor canon. You do begin in prison in Oblivion, whether you like it or not and whether you mod it out or not. Period. As written by the series' creators, the story of Oblivion begins with the eventual hero in the Imperial Prison.



I started with a game called Arena, then played Daggerfall, then Morrowind, then Oblivion. I'm fine with the prison intro.

Okay, but really, why such adamant feelings to keep the prisoner intro. Why is the prisoner intro superior to any other intros? Why is it so grand? You guys who keep shooting down the opinions of Qawsed Asap and I about alternative ways to start a game, but I have yet to hear, let alone understand, why your position is that much better, other than "it's a blank slate" or "tradition." Elaborate, guys, and please explain exactly why it is better to be a prisoner again than any other way.

And pretty much, I agree and respect ya opinion of this. Hopefully, prisoner is a metaphor.


And ya repeating with me as well and we go in full circle.

We don't know the new story but we cannot assume its jail time. Problem I keep seeing that prisoner == jail/prison cell, not to mention the tradition part as well. That is why I would offer other intro which I keep presenting but ya do not like it and wanted to remain a "jail cell" intro.


I am not "screwing" with ya but present argument that the intro is not a tradition and that the Dev could have done better with presenting it, without jail. And again, I don't mind being a prisoner of the Main Quest but not so with a Jail Cell, which I all I see in this whole thread.

As for modding, I like it to see if I can play the game Vanilla-style. I prefer that I don't have to resort to Modding to fix the Dev mistake.


As a template but the overall care of the Series is the Main Quest. No one is ganna remember the CoC (assuming Sean Bean did not take all the credit as hero) as a prisoner but as a person that was involve with the quest. Same with no one remember the Hero of Daggerfall as shipwreaker, Hero of Morrowind came out of the boat, Hero of Arena out of a dungeon, and so on.

Oh, and please answer's Hellmouth question. I really like to know as well.

We are defending the fact that you are a prisoner because you guys think that the prisoner intro is flawed and generic when that isn't even close. It is highly capable of making the game intro incredibly diverse. I could care less what the beginning of the game is as long as it is entertaining and it makes sense. Being a prisoner makes sense and is usually decently entertaining. The very fact that people went into an uproar saying that the tradition in TES was unoriginal and shallow when it is completely original and has plenty of depth. I mean, look at what I posted earlier and I made it off the top of my head:



Makes complete sense, it is entertaining and let's it easily flows into and ties with the main story. That took 10 sec to think up. Just think what stories can be created with time and has been created using the premise that you start out as a prisoner. I could care less if you start out in a field as long as it makes sense. But exploding because your a prisoner once again in Skyrim makes no sense when it can make just as good stories as anything else can but can limit the player to a certain area so that they can learn the controls without it feeling like a typical boring tutorial.

As for the examples of beginnings that are just as good. I have yet to see one. I've seen Qawsed's alternative intros and they were unrealistic and full of paradoxes. As for another thing with modding out the prison intro to Oblivion...That is one of the things I don't like about us having the capabilities to mod because some people will mutilate the game even if it is perfectly fine because they don't want to spend like 5 min to get through the starting dungeon that has a nice atmosphere to it. Modding to mutilate the game is just ridiculous. Modding is meant to put things in, not take things out, I, as a modder, think that's just appalling.

@qawsed Prisoner is not synonymous with prison intro. Also your intros weren't that good, they did not have a narrative at all and it made no sense. Also, being a prisoner is a tradition.... Traditions can be broken but it's a tradition nonetheless. It has happened 3/4 of the time so it is tradition no matter what you say lol.

I'm once again speeking for myself, but I'm trying to understand you points of view. I can see why you'd want something different.

Let me try a different annalogy. Its like your favorite pair of pants. You like them cause they fit good enough, they're comfy, and well, they've been with you for a long time now.

New pants are stiff, uncomfortable, strange. If your asking for a reason, your not going to get one. Not a good one anyway. Why? Cause something like this would take some time to work into. Am I saying it wouldn't work? No, infact it probably would be better. Its just, that new pants feel is uncomfortable for a long time.

I'm a guy who looks at both sides, and tries to find a compromise. And...I just cant find one here. The dev like the main character to start down on their luck, as a prisoner. And then when they come and save everyone, its like one big slogan saying Second Chances are real with Goku waving the banner. Its the way its been, and how it probably will continue no matter what we say. Now, with mods you can get around that, but I don't think you should have to use a mod to rp the way you want...

Its a hard question, and one we probably wont get an answer to.

Uh...what? I haven't the slightest idea what (if anything) you're trying to say here.



How about I answer it like you answer things? Here goes:

I like the prison opening, it makes perfect sense, I don't care what anybody else thinks, period.


Now the more honest response: I've never had a problem with the "prisoner" beginning, possibly because I'm well aware of the difference between being a prisoner and being evil/felonious/whatever. And having become used to it, I genuinely love the unstoppable nerd-rage it inspires. It entertains me. It's that simple. :shrug:

I also agree that I should not be forced to mod to RP the way I want, but I don't like being stuck in some dingy dungeon in the Imperial City. As I said before, with MW, it did give us the grace of glossing over it, and once in game, it made it look as though we were never in jail, and just happened to be hitching a ride to Vvardenfell as a new immigrant.

It FEEDS YOU!!!!!!!!!!!




That's not RPing, that's just ignoring the foundation of the story of the game. The problem with Morrowind is that it didn't have a tutorial. It just basically said, "Here you go, you better figure out all the controls fast or your going to die. Good Luck!" That's not what they were aiming for. Plus it also didn't have the immersion in the beginning of the game which is another reason I don't like Morrowind as much as Daggerfall and Oblivion. The only thing redeemable about Morrowind is that it's Main story. The rest of the game was basically meh, where Oblivion had a more immersive world with better side quests and the epic music combined with the gorgeous world really speaks to you. Daggerfall just had amazing gameplay and a good main quest.

...



You said you find it funny to annoy me, so yeah, you are screwing around with me.

I do understand your wish to get the most enjoyment out of the vanilla game, and judging by what I've seen so far of Skyrim, it looks promising. However, you're basing your entire argument on the fact that the GI article mentioned that the player would be a 'prisoner' - no mention of starting the game in jail. A prison camp doesn't seem so unlikely, you know, considering the theme of civil war. It isn't unheard of for completely innocent people to be rounded up and placed into internment camps during times of civil war, or even just plain war.

all the elderscrolls games I've played started with my character in prison( why people insist in calling them toons, I'll never know).
Arena was part of the plot as far as I care

Daggerfall was done in the intro, you never saw the cell, but you were there

Morrowind, had the PC in the imperial jail, and then on the boat to morrowind( now known as the Wasteland).
Oblivion had us in the Imperial Jail, and let us escape the place with the Emperor Septim.

I like Oblivion, hated the Introduction, it was boring after the 2nd run through, would of played it more if it had a SKIP dialoge with the idiot dunmer in the cell across the hall from you.

meaning I play through the intros atleast once, but all the same, maybe we should start a thread stating what your character did to get in prison in the first place.

Actually, SteelfireDragon, you were never in prison, you were the emprah's friend sent on a mission to go to DF and lay to rest the ghost of a recently deceased noble. You get on a boat, it becomes shipwrecked, and you fight your way out of the cave.

How dare you call Valen Dreth stupid! I took great joy of breaking back into the jail and assassinating him. :celebration:



Yeah, I've also mentioned the intros for all the games but Q doesn't seem to get that you were a prisoner in each main TES game but Daggerfall.

Ya defending the fact that one wanted to have a jail intro and willing to create a whole amount of bull crap or as ya say it "incredibly diverse" ignoring the fact one is starting out in a jail.


And one consider the prison intro as "realistic", ignoring all plot hole presented in Oblivion's intro. The intro I presented for Oblivion make sense as it does not require one to be in prison to begin with. What ya call "mutilating", I call improvement over what the game offer, and there is so much I modded in Oblivion to say that.


Again, one ignore the intro so blindly to make one self think he right. Oblivion is the only game with a Prison intro and there more than 4 game so far, counting the spinoff. There no tradition. And who really need to be narrative if one can narrative themselves to the main quest.


Nerd-rage? Right. Anyways, these conversation entertain me as it keep my mind off of school and work.


If that what ya think I am doing to ya, then that what ya think.


I am more in term of other forumites assuming prisoner mean one is in jail rather than seeing it in a literally sense that it could be something else.

I do recall some of the intors on it saying you got arrested.....

oh well if you say so.

as for Valen, I've done that too, but at the point of time you go back and kill him, he's already has no purpose and was a marked man when we met him the first time.


he's still an idiot

I love going back and seeing how things like this start. The internet is it's own world.

I'm nearly certain that this will be lost in the flood of flames. Starting as some kind of prisoner is completely okay with me. It's not about it being tradition. It's about starting the game. Unless Beth allows custom intros for each character created in each copy of the game, you will have to be forced into some starting place. Being a prisoner is as good as any other forced starting point. Start my outlaw in an inn, or my ranger in a tavern. Just let me start my game.



ADDENDUM: [/hk voice]
If players were allowed to place their character on the map, would the anti-prisonites be happy? If so, (assuming level grinding is frowned upon, characters should be pointed to the MQ somehow, and nothing is fixed from the start, including inventory) how would that work with the MQ?




Edit: Haha And there goes the discussion, right past my post...