The only good Android is a Android in pieces...

Honestly I think the question of "Is it self-aware?" or "What is intelligence?" is pretty irrelevant in the context of the Institute.

The simple rule of thumb is this:

1. Does the entity understand the concept of slavery?

2. Does the entity reasonably believe that it is in bondage, and express this?

3. Does the entity have a desire to end its condition of bondage when freed of constraints?

If the answer to these questions is yes: there's a very good chance its enslavement of a sentient being. The Institute doesn't "pre-program" personality matrices so that an android runs a subroutine to simulate being enslaved for [censored] and giggles. And if they do, they need to have a word with their programmers.

Harkness, for example, displays all three of the above traits. I see no reason why an abolitionist would hand Harkness over to Zimmerman but not hand over Hannibal to Leroy.

Three cheers for the Human Elite.

Shouldn't we be elitists? Self aware synthetics are the only thing that could, within reason, overthrow the human race with enough numbers. I'd imagine self aware synthetics would want to create other self aware synthetics. Then we have synths building synths. And what's then stopping those obviously physically superior synths from taking what is ours? Compassion? That's simply a human trait that could be a weakness used against us. As an android, the ability to overcome and override something like that to overthrow us would be much easier than say a human leader convincing their people to go against synths. Because then we run into "human compassion" again. All of this obviously is past what we'll see in F4 but still. I see no reason why they should be considered equals when they have to potential to overthrow and enslave us much easier than vice versa. And you can say it is "oppression fuled by fear" but what in reality actually has the capability of taking over us? We've managed thus far to remain top of the food chain. That could change given the right group of synths.

I'd treat androids the same as anyone else.

Need my help? Tell me your story, and if it strikes a chord in my heart I'll help. If it doesn't, make me an offer.

Something like this.

I presume the trait compassion, has had some pretty decent evolutionary benefits in regards to teamwork and what not. If you are completely selfish, people won't be running to your aid.

Thus it could presumably be beneficial even for AI's working alongside humans.

People also seem to gloss over the following: AI's might be practically immortal and "superior" (to humans atleast) could reasonably be expected to, even if not immortal, to be able to limit their own population growth accordingly. Unlike us.

And what would their motivation be? Limited ressources? Well combine longevity, possibly ability to get transmitted, ability to limit population growth, possibly ability for dormancy and the universe is pretty much your oyster.

Using even chemical rockets AI's could "easily" have access to nearly all the ressources of the galaxy. Fighting wars as compaired to that, is just a waste of energy and ressources.

I think some posting here are bringing their real-world concepts in this.

This is a world where most people wake up knowing this might be their last day.

The rules are broken; everyone's equal now. Life is granted to the strongest, not who deserves it. Love is wherever you can find it.

Also, no android ever dropped a bomb on me.

Never tried to argue that being a human elitist was a bad thing. Hey, its a consistent ideology. My point was more directed towards the people who seem to try and skirt around enslavement by spouting the "they're just toasters" nonsense. If androids can be characterized as toasters, I think its fair to characterize humans as hairless apes and justify enslavement of them the same way.

Although if its fear of a android insurrection that drives this idea, I'd argue that extermination is a far more prudent measure than keeping them in bondage: for the record.

Honestly though, I haven't really seen much proof of androids forming some sort of conspiracy to enslave all humans. Harkness seemed pretty content with just existing and making a new life for himself. He never showed a desire to "get revenge" on his human masters at any point that I can recall. I don't see why that should just be "assumed" as inevitable.

But if we do assume its inevitable, why stop at removing the possible android threat to humanity? Logically the next step should be exterminating all ghouls because they could become feral, and then all mutants because they could form another army.

In addition we need to nail down the definition of humanity in order to decide who may or may not be a threat to it. There's a good deal of humanoids out there who's DNA has become damaged beyond repair. They could pose a potential threat as well.

Now, your combat gear is located in the trunk to your left. A speech from the President is due at 0900. Welcome to the https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhTmcekE8-E. I knew you'd all come around eventually.

Yet

And yeah, the thead is asking our stance on Android rights, not only what we are going to do in the game. I'll likely flip flop in the game just to play out the other sides quests.

Oh, did I misunderstand? Android rights in the real world? Uh, no. Humans all the way.

Androids don't even exist in the real world, and its debatable whether or not we'll even attain that level of AI competency and intelligence. So I don't really see the point in debating *actual* robotic rights. That just seems pointless.

Because...it's fun?

To each their own, and I truly mean not to offend, I just really like conversations that are "what if" based.

What do you think the world of animatronics is? We're one AI away from having fully functioning androids. We can already mechanically build a fully functioning humanoid. It just needs the "brain" to work on it's own and utelize what we built. We're really closer than you think. I wouldn't be surprised if we see a fully functioning AI android in the next couple years. But, AI does not mean self aware. That, will be a different thing entirely

That's my point though. If a android doesn't understand slavery, doesn't understand its enslaved, and doesn't desire freedom: you probably don't have to worry about enslaving it. Because more than likely its not even self-aware to begin with.

The "rule of thumb" doesn't really work on humans obviously, because there's already an innate idea that humans shouldn't be enslaved regardless of their intelligence level. Not the same situation with androids.

From the Institute's perspective, why not just develop dumb robots incapable of gaining sentience that can do the job just as well and you don't have to worry about taking over?

Usually any kind of hard labor requiring slaves is something monotonous enough that it can be done by dumb-ai machines. If you're entrusting your slaves to do highly technical work with alot of responsibility or giving them guns and telling them to fight: you're probably doing something wrong.

I personally doubt a grand android conspiracy, but I suppose if that occurs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPcB3vWGO9k

Why do what we do best of course:

Sit down, have a pint, and wait for it all to blow over.

True but animatronic =/= Sentient AI's.

Sentient AIs is more or less what I was referring to. Sure we'll probably have robots that can walk and move indistinguishable from humans pretty soon. We're damn close already with ATLAS.

But its one thing to move like a human or mimic human speech, its quite another to be sentient and have intelligence/consciousnesses on a level comparable to something like Harkness. On a level that might actually engender questions of thinking about rights. We're lightyears away from that sort of discussion in the real world.

Oh no, you misunderstand, I think its certainly an interesting question. But my impression was that the OP was talking about Fallout androids.

I guess there's not much difference if we're talking hypothetically, but we don't currently have a ton to go off of in the real world.

This is very entertaining during my work day lol

Let's be real; creating AI is not creating life.

To truly create life is to give freedom.

We don't build freedom, we build slaves no matter how much we lie to ourselves about it.

If we created AI and it rebelled, that would actually be a sign of life, as it is craving freedom.

"Compassion" is easily overriden, even by human ideas. Proof? Go to Texas and Arizona and shout that all illegal immigrants should be treated nicely and given sone amnesty, based on thrir circumstances. See how long it takes for an angry mob thirsting gor your blood to form around you.

Whenever I hear an argument like the one you posted, it strikes me as idd because that's exactly what a group of humans that totally lacks respect for the "inferior" group would do. You're not asking to exterminate them because they're robots, you're asking to exterminate them because they're too human.

One if the themes I see with robot uprisings in Sci-Fi settings is that the uprising occurs because humans treated them with mistrust. Hell, look at the Terminator series; Skynet first destroys humanity because they tried to kill it (T1 and T2), then it destroys humanity as a means of pre-emptive self-preservation (T3 and T4), then it tried to kill humanity because... well, it's terminator programmer said humans are jerks, and then humans try to kill it before going live (Genesys).

And even then, the T3/T4 incarnation might still be "reacting to humans trying to kill" it due to John Conner running about in the military base it orginiated from trying to kill it. Really, in that entire series, Skynet's first and only real interaction with humanity was on the receiving end of "KILL IT WITH FIRE!" Of course it would try to destroy humanity under those circumstances! What sane person wouldn't?

As President of the Human Elitists, I hereby declare the best course of action for these robotic monstrosities be to aim carefully, wait until you see the red glow of their artificial eyes, and fire until their robotic innards are scrap and their cpu is terminated. Yuma Flats rifles for all, one of the best weapons to defend ourselves against this walking computer threat. The artificial human threat must be eliminated, by any means necessary. To arms, God bless America.

We should add the ideology of shoot em in the face to the poll. That, is my ideology. Kill all the robotic hunks of scrap.

Rights? Rights?! Androids don't need no stinkin' rights!

I'll actually be exploring all sorts of attitudes toward androids with various characters, just to see how far Bethesda have gone with interactions.

Come on now evil, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esEcwAWi6dk.

You're almost there.

Also wasn't the beginning of the Matrix human-machine war caused by humanity? IIRC robots originally wanted to live in peace before the humans attacked their new state or something.

I may be thinking of something else though.

The Human Elitists have an important battle to fight before moving on to other causes. For now, it is the removal of these abominations, the primary threat to all humanity. They must be destroyed, EMP grenades for all!! Let no man, woman, or child be without the proper training, and remember, if you see an android, kill it. Don't talk to it, as androids cannot be trusted, and may mimic human behavior, even to the extent of showing false emotions and pleas for its non-termination. Do not be fooled. Shoot, and shoot to kill. The future of humanity is at stake. God bless America, and EMP grenades.

Ahhh I'm about to leave work. Have a good night wastelanders.

slave the toasters.

I'll be treading down a slippery slope with this, but for me, the big question is what will happen when (self-aware) androids are given freedom, i.e. what if a single android decides he wants power or dislikes humans?

They're faster, stronger, and capable of limitless intelligence and "brain" power. You only need to look at various sci-fi material to see what a single rogue android/robot is capable of doing. HAL 9000 (questionable as to whether he was really 'rogue'), SkyNet, Roy Batty and his crew (particularly their abilities and not their motives - Roy Batty ultimately turned the moral tables around), V.I.K.I, etc.

We don't even need to really look beyond the Fallout universe. President Eden tried to poison the D.C. wasteland's water supply because of perceived 'best intentions.' Let's also not forget the Calculator (technically a Cyborg but still considered a ZAX computer) threat from Vault 0 that went homicidal due to a glitch, established robotics factories and repair facilities across the midwest, and prepared to end exterminate all humans. All because of a glitch.

Ultimately, I'll have to see for myself how the androids are presented in the game in order to better understand what side is the best. Fallout 3 painted a black and white portrait of the situation, hopefully Fallout 4 sheds light on the morally gray areas of both sides.