Haters Gonna Hate Oww...............

I like him. Seems like decent guy in a bad spot. He has his flaws, but he has good intentions. He wouldn't be a reason why I join the Legion over the Stormcloaks though. Definitely one of the better Jarl's.

I would have liked him to pick a side depending which side you were already on (goes Imperial if you sided with them, SC if you sided with SC).

But after I saw his dialogue should he side with the SC...I'm glad he went with the Legion.

I agree. The Empire is more fond of executing people as a warning. Like Roggvir. "If you dare act against our rule, you will be killed, so stay put!" and all of that.

I'm going to declare my bias as a pro-Stormcloak guy, though I don't hate the Empire, and ask that, if nothing else, people can be honest regarding the Empire's use of intimidation and military power to secure their own interests in the provinces, be it political(like getting a pro-Empire High King elected in the Moot) or economical. There wouldn't be a need to play so strongly on the Stormcloak's good sides if the Empire's bad sides weren't tucked out of view so much.

Edit: To clarify, by the Empire, I mean the Emperor, the Elder Council and their chief political allies, not Cyrodiil itself. The Counts seem to be in a very similar position to the Jarls and nobles of other provinces. Everything eventually comes back to the Imperial City.

What's so bad about his dialogue for the SC side?

-1 internet for no youtube link of said ballin

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPwFuCL33I8

My second favorite Jarl. He's got a good head on his shoulders (no matter what the haters say) and seems to actually care about his people. His kids are little turds though.

Let's just say he becomes Ulfric's little...pet...

Kill it!!! Kill it with fire!!!

He opposes Ulfric. He's a fool.

Only strength Ulfric has more than Balgruuf is that Ulfric possesses the power of the th'um. Balgruuf has more intellect. Ulfric is a peasant with a lot of bravado.

Based on what, exactly? Ulfric has demonstrated that he is a knowledgable person. He did get almost half of Skyrim by himself, and I doubt an unintellegent person can learn the thu'um. The Greybeards did select him and not Balgruuf, after all.

Your observations are inadequate. Balgruuf is probably younger than Ulfric, which would't make him a excelling candidate.

a jarl addicted to imperial coin like the rest of them

I don't deal in probablies and maybes. Not without reasonable belief to do so. Balgruuf and Ulfric both look similar ages. And there's nothing to show otherwise. It also doesn't point to anything of intellegence.

Likely the only good jarl apart from Ulfric.

I think Jarl Vignar is a much more worthy replacement to Jarl Ballin, the guy's weak and can't even handle his own home so how can he handle his hold?

Free-Winter is a great guy. Like Balgruuf he is more interested in building up his hold, avoiding violence and giving everyone equal ground on his turf.

One of the main reasons I like to help Empire in Skyrim is so I can get Free-Winter in charge of Windhelm.

Of course, if your world view revolves around killing people then Brunwulf is not your Jarl...

Now I want to know exactly what this dialogue is...

Then peasants have to be pretty decently skilled at politics. Looking at the events preceding the start of the game with regards to the rebellion is pretty interesting:

- The Markarth Incident happens. Said to be the real start of the war and what ultimately made Ulfric loose faith in the Empire. Ulfric's Thu'um would become well known after this.

- Ulfric is released from prison sometime after his father dies. Sometime after this he founds what will eventually become the Stormcloak army as a personal force to better advance his political agenda.

- Ulfric speaks at the Moot that elects Torygg, in terms "just shy of treason"(translated that means that he spoke as bluntly and clearly as he could have without being arrested for it). This makes sure that all the Jarls know where he stands, and this is likely to spread rapidly from the Jarls' courts to other people of influence, like Thanes.

- Ulfric's Stormcloaks are having skirmishes and the like with his political opponents and evading multiple attempts of ambushes according to Hadvar.

- Ulfric challenges the High King to a duel. This duel, according to Stentor, could not be ignored once issued in court. Torygg had to either accept it and face certain death, or he could decline and give Ulfric the right to call for another Moot. Either way a new Moot will be called for, at the expense of the Imperial Sovereign in Skyrim, which has symbolic significance, given a "puppet-king who couldn't defend his throne" and all of that. Not good press in Skyrim.

The death of the High King also forces the rulers of Skyrim to take a side in the conflict, where he gets support of the Rift, the Pale and Winterhold, in addition to his own hold, Eastmarch, giving him about as much influence in Skyrim as the Empire has. His forces, founded years ago, now swell with the people looking to join his cause, be it guards and soldiers from his supporting holds or just people fighting to freedom from the Empire. By using the Thu'um he lays the foundation of a picture of a "Warrior-king killing the Imperial puppet with the ancient art of the Nords", which is a pretty intimidating message to the Jarls that he is not backing down from his cause. A message so loud the Empire had to respond despite not having much liberty to send men away from the southern border.

And finally, according to Hadvar, a pro-Empire guy, Ulfric was winning until Tullius, the go-to guy of the Emperor himself(assuming Tullius isn't lying when he says he is, since I have no reason to doubt him) came along a few months ago.

Unless you're just chucking this up to coincidence, which to me makes little sense given that Hadvar explicitly says that Ulfric have worked against the Empire for years, you have to admit that Ulfric is pretty good at this rebellion thing. He clearly isn't just "some peasant" with bravado. I'd find him a bit more calculating than that. He did get half of what has historically been the most pro-Empire province after Cyrodiil itself to rebel against what is still recognized by many as the Septim Empire, as in Tiber Septim. Who is Talos, the Dragon of the North(Ysmir), who in turn is a beloved god-hero of the Nordic people.

Well, I wouldn't go asserting that too strongly, at least if you're thinking about more than an inconsequential difference(like a year or three). Dialogue in the Message to Whiterun places Balgruuf on the throne of Whiterun at the end of the Great War, 26 years ago. The timeline possible to establish for Ulfric's life would make him(Ulfric) arounf 23-26 years old at the time. So I don't think there'd be much difference in their age, and nothing of importance.

I don't think that's a fair comparison to make. Laila Law-Giver doesn't trust him, Skald is a religious zealot and Korir rules a bunch of hovels. Hell, Laila thinks that having a different political opinion is caused by brain damage.

Having the support of a clueless clod, a zealot and a desperate glory-seeker isn't really a mark in his favor.

The Imperial holds are better off, comparatively. Morthal is a sleepy town with no real problems other than the resident vampires, Markarth has a whole lot of other problems but it's fairly prosperous, Solitude is Solitude, Falkreath's Jarl is corrupt but there's no evidence of his city having issues and Whiterun is the premier trading hub of the province.

You leaving out Kraldar?

I'd say Kraldar, Brina, Ulfric, Vignar, Balgruuf, Dengeir, and possibly Sorli(Could go either way, there's barely any dialogue or reference to her in game) make decent jarls

Dengeir is insane.

Kraldar and Vignar Gray-Mane are good. I always give Winterhold to the Imperials in Season Unending when independent so Korir and his annoying son leave. Also ensures the Imperials and Maven Black-Briar stay out of power in Riften.

I had only thought of the jarls before the civil war aftermath. In that case, a majority of the replacements make for better jarls. While others are no better than the previous one.

That's not really a good indicator of his intellegence. "Beggars can't be choosers". The Imperial holds are better off because the Imperial holds have acces to Imperial gold, and the only city really bad off is Winterhold, but the reason for that is obvious. The other cities have their issues, but so does the Imperial ones. Morthal isn't exactly wealthy, neither is Falkreath. Falkreath's Jarl is...well. Markarth has corruption oozing out of it, but they're lucky enough to have the silver mines and slave labor.

All holds have their issues. No reflection on Tullius and Elisif, or Ulfric's side.