I agree with your suggestion. I always felt there was no point to understanding what it was for myself besides slapping myself in the head. I think the lore forum tends to make things a bit more complicated then they really are, getting off on the forum newcomers having there head exploding. Your idea on the stick with the spoiler tags seems to be a great one. If people want the fun in searching what it is, let them do it, but if they want to know right away, let them do it.

"Imagine a world of circles, where only circles can exist, now imagine a triangle pops up, but only circles can exist, but the triangle does not vanish, it becomes whatever it desires. Now turn the world sideways, and slap it seven times.....and that is your answer." [censored] like that never helps.

Hell, the lore might as well not exist then, if someone is going to figure it out and then just put all of the answers up. They'll probably even be wrong or be contested by someone who did their own reading and got a different interpretation.

Trust me...this is "video games" we're talking about.... Someone would do it.

The problem is that you can't talk about all the nuances and detailed theories about CHIM when you don't have that basic explanation. It's like trying to understand the ramifications of the destruction of the Heart of Lorkhan or the ending of the Graymarch when you don't even know the plot of MW or SI. And judging from the number of "what's CHIM?" threads we get, a fair number of people don't have the basic idea. A stickie would be very helpful. Quote Vehk, link to his Teachings, include one or two sentences of simple explanation, and put it all under spoiler tags if you must.

I know I never said anything intelligent about CHIM until I figured it out for myself. Not to say that I did so entirely, but I lived with the hints and anologies and discussions for a long time until I could grow them into something understandable and personal.

Normally, you would be right, friend Miriele. However, it would be like buying a ticket to a whodunnit movie and some poor slob in the back ruining the ending because he has already seen it.

The ending isn't why you bought the ticket; it was the experience of going and seeing the whole movie from beginning to end.

I know that this sounds quite obtuse and "full 'o s**t" (and I would have agreed with you about a year and a half ago), but we would not deliberately steer you wrong.

Yours in the Scrolls,


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

I'm no Loremaster, but I agree with this (mostly the first sentence). If there's no mystery, no discovery, no interpretation, just easy answers to the interesting issues - that's not Lore.

That's a FAQ.

The interplay of vague, conflicting texts, reading/researching and discussing ideas (good/bad, right/wrong)... That's got to be worth some extra "What is CHIM?" or "What's the subgradient [z]?" threads. Right?

Right?

I won't go into names and into details, but I've seen people who were present when a couple of people (including me) discussed CHIM in a very detailed and actually simple manner. The result of the people who did not have the background and understanding was literally "So that's CHIM? That's really all about it? Is it really that simple? What a piece of crap!".

The point is, as I said above, that realization cannot be achieved by spoilers. Also, and again taking the risk of being called elitist: those who really care about it will eventually find out about it, study until they are able to appreciate it and then figure it out. I don't mind at all to try to help by giving pointers, but outright telling what CHIM is - is actually the most straightforward way to destroying it.

The hints are out there, the texts have been discussed multiple times (and I don't mind quoting the Teachings for the hundredth time), but people who are interested should read and think about them by themselves to an extent, too.

I am also of the opinion that a qualified discussion about any topic requires that the participants know what they are talking about (and that they are prepared for it). If not, it's aimless blabber.

To avoid spamming up the topic with multiple posts, I'll reply to several people at once (and thus spam it up with one long post, instead).


You always post such wonderful things, so I hate to disagree with you... but I'm just not convinced. Not everyone enjoys piecing together basic concepts when they don't have to, and not everyone finds that figuring things out for themselves is the best way to understand the concept. Personally, I find it frustrating and outright detrimental to my understanding, no matter what the concept. It wasn't until I happened across some rare straightforward discussion of CHIM in one thread or another that I actually started to get what people were talking about. I suppose there might be some value in weeding out people not dedicated enough to look for those threads, but as we're talking about fictional metaphysics, I don't really see the point.



A stickie is meant to be a starting point, not the final word. We already have that lore FAQ up at the top of the page, and that doesn't seem to be detrimental to discussion. Vehk's Teachings has also not hurt discussion -- and would we even be able to talk about CHIM if we didn't have that?

(And I still haven't figured out the whole subgradient business.)



I suspect part of this is because the basic concept really isn't all that complicated. All the little details and ramifications may be, but the basic definition is pretty simple. Given the esoteric nature of many lore forum posts, though, people expect something a bit more obviously complex. A stickie may actually alleviate some of this, as you wouldn't have people struggling with an idea only to find out that it can be summed up in one sentence (a scenario that's basically an invitation to exclamations of "that's IT?").

At any rate, any stickie could also include a note saying that it's just an explanation of the very basic concept, not the nuances that form the meat of discussions.


Honestly, it wasn't until I came across one of those threads where CHIM was discussed in a "very detailed and actually simple manner" that I started to get it. As I said above, not everyone understands things best when they've figured them out on their own. (Of course, some people do, or just find it more fun, which is why I suggested spoiler tags.)

CHIM is just a simple as it is hard.

Hows THAT for semantic garbage? But really, I think I understand it, but I can't write it down.

It's got nothing to do with being all high and mighty about a fictional concept that only the true geeks understand. It is simply that "alternative explanations" only make it harder, because they would use a vocabulary that is at any rate more cryptic than the original. Vehk's teachings are not written in a cryptic way. They deal with alien concepts, but the language is straightforward.

Ok, I really want to find out what CHIM is but it seems you guys won't give answers. Which books do you suggest I should read? And where should I begin?

Just read http://www.imperial-library.info/obscure_text/vehk_teaching.shtml, like Adanorcil said. It beats listening to Yet Another CHIM anology. (YACA for short. I've decided.)

As Julianos is the god of history, law, literature, logic, prophecy and, most importantly, contradiction, I take it as a blessing to be contradicted, not as a challenge.

JHUNAL Himself has deigned to befit you with a need for a more inquisitive and specialized answer than He does most; how wonderful it feels to have His attention, no?

I will ponder upon how to answer in a manner that suits your needs yet does not cut short the journeys of others.

JHUNAL willing, I shall write again soon. Until then, I remain...


___The Word Merchant of Julianos

Yeah...this is being said alot...sooo...I'd say that people...should probably...do it.... :shrug:

I'm just saying. Saves a lot of spam.

I propose :grad: lore degree's , this is to prevent people from making senseless posts and making YACT (Yet Another CHIM Thread) without knowing anything about the subject, it would work in the following way : If one creates a thread he adds tags to the thread (with a new forum button), now if someone wants to post in a thread wich is for example "tagged" zero sum or CHIM anyone who wants to reply should have his lore degree's in this subject, Lore degree's should be handed out by a Bethesda approved Lore Master Moderator. He would hand these degree's out on the basis of a very hard test about a subject in wich the participant should answer all questions about this subject conform the ruling consencus.

On a more serious sidenote tough, I haven't found out what CHIM is yet, i've got a vague idea in my head but I can't say I understand it yet. But I wouldn't want a forum sticky saying WHAT CHIM is in a definition kind of way. For 1 it would take the fun out of it ("it's not about the reaching the goal but the way that leads to it" cliche i know) and for 2 it kills discussion; Example.
-Hey i've got this new theory about CHIM. "elaborates on new theory"
-reply#01 by mindless forum troll: That theory is so STOPied, youhave obviouslie not studyed loer, jsut sheck zhe sticky, it is so NOOOT true, the sticky says: "CHIM = blablabla" and you say different and sticky is right zomg 001101010110101

Anyway I vote NO sticky, maybe some hints in the currently existing faq's like check Vehk's teachings

[Nvmd, satire detector broke]

:ahhh:







:rofl:

This is true, in a very far-fetched, absurdly simplified, word-bended, all in all not helpful way.

I'm just saying, it's so vague as to be wrong. People who are looking for answers will know nothing more. In fact, I even had to think for a while just to come to the conclusion that with a lot of good will your statement could be considered somewhat correct.

EDIT: In fact, now I think about it again, saying that Zero Sum is nothing is rather wrong than vaguely right.

Indeed, but it was in response to TWM's post.